D&D 3E/3.5 [Dragon] #307 - 3.5 Changes: Some we know, some we don't...

[Shalewind]

Anyway, we can go back and forth on these types of tactics and situations all day long and still be at odds. I like the changes simply because they sound like they will make the game more fun. We haven't even seen the changes they will be making to wildshape, the level of hold, or changes to any of the other spells as a result of the changes in this article to really even know how things will work out. Thus, it is WAY too early to be complaining about the nerf aspect or any of the possible changes in tactics.

I agree completely and shall now remain silent.

 

[andargor]

OOOOhhhhh....

CRAP! You're talking about letting the character save EVERY TURN?

Meaning that if he succeeds against the save, he still has to save NEXT round or be held?

So you could have characters that save for 4 or 5 rounds... only to suddenly stop in their tracks? And characters who never know if they'll be paralyzed for the turn or not?

This strikes me as REALLY amusing. It keeps Hold powerful without making it boring for the players. I'm really tempted to use this method!!

Yep. It makes it somewhat in line with what Web does.

Plus it's still useful at high levels, since the duration would be greater.

A little mod: if the inital save is made, no other saves necessary and the spell fails. If the initial save fails, then saves every round to be able to act.

Of course, SR would apply.

Andargor

EDIT: Spelling.

 

[bret]

Re: Hold Person to subdue

You're right - you'll have to use teamwork instead. Hold Person + a CdG from the rogue wielding a blunt instrument should do nicely if you want to remove someone from the fight without hurting them.

Sorry, but the Rogue can only do Subdual Damage if using a Sap (Blackjack) or his fist. Otherwise, the damage is real. It is not sufficient to use a club, mace, or other blunt weapon.

See pg 47 of PHB, second to last paragraph in the Sneak Attack section.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sorry, but the Rogue can only do Subdual Damage if using a Sap (Blackjack) or his fist.

Or a whip, if the target is unarmoured

"Down, boy!" Crack!

-Hyp.

 

[John Crichton]

That's only for sneak attacks. Anyone can take a -4 to do subdual damage.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's only for sneak attacks. Anyone can take a -4 to do subdual damage.

Yup, but it negates one of the primary benefits of having a Rogue do the CDG.

Actually, is there anything in the FAQ about making a CDG with a subdual weapon? By the wording in the PHB, you'd automatically hit and crit... and since they'd definitely survive (all the damage being subdual), they'd then make a Fort save or die.

... which would be slightly unfortunate if you were trying to take someone captive

-Hyp.

 

[John Crichton]

Yup, but it negates one of the primary benefits of having a Rogue do the CDG.

This, I agree with.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A little mod: if the inital save is made, no other saves necessary and the spell fails. If the initial save fails, then saves every round to be able to act.

Would you make it stackable?

If someone casts five Hold Person spells on you, would you have to make five saves each round to be able to act?

-Hyp.

 

[Destil]

Just my Turkish $0.02 on the new Hold.

I like the fact that you allow the target to "resist" the magic by allowing a save every round.

However, I think that even if the save is made, the spell should still be in effect for the duration. So a save is made every round for the duration: on a successful save, the character prevails against the effects of the spell and can act, and on a failure she is overwhelmed and is held. Since it's a Will save, it makes for good RP opportunities.

Makes it more interesting for the held character, no?

Andargor

This is, in fact, exactily what I was really thinking they were going to do with hold person. At any rate I'll be using it, reguardless.

I'm still annoyed about the loss of versitility with pollymorph, though. IMHO they should have preserved it's ability as a utility spell and made it a less worthwile combat buff (something that dosn't really help or hinder you much in combat dirrectly), which is always where the problems with the spell were.

 

[Bauglir]

I remember hearing something somewhere (can't remember where now) about being able to apply subdual damage with any blunt weapon (possibly with a feat) in 3.5 [presumably without the -4]. Could be my imagination mind you.

* Takes the edge off his scythe *