Dragon 338: Returning to Athas, part1

[Aldarc]

Yeah, fair enough. Except, I avoid any revised Dark Sun stuff, so in my version of athas - there never were orcs, gnolls, gnomes, or anything like that.

The setting, as presented, just works better in my mind with fewer humanoid races. I think most settings do. It helps solidify things in my head.

Okay. That sounds reasonable. I too prefer less humanoid races in my campaign. I am always puzzled as to how so many competing, and presumably evolved, humanoid races can flourish in a world. So less humanoid races in a world gives more room to develop those that do exist. Admittedly, the Feywild and Shadowfall give more room to these other flourishing races, which is why, in general, I like the addition of these parallel planes.

I am not challenging you on this matter, as you do admit that it is a minor quibble, but I think that the inclusion of the Feywild in Dark Sun seeks to address a similar concern. The inclusion of the Feywild is not just for the eladrin, but perhaps more so because some of the monsters of Dark Sun seem out of place in the natural world of Athas. Of course it could be easy to say "a wizard did it" for the existence of these incredibly exotic creatures, but the existence of the Feywild allows for them to be exotic and naturally occurring monsters, who are now trying to eke out their lives in the equally dying world of Athas.

 

[Wik]

I am not challenging you on this matter, as you do admit that it is a minor quibble, but I think that the inclusion of the Feywild in Dark Sun seeks to address a similar concern. The inclusion of the Feywild is not just for the eladrin, but perhaps more so because some of the monsters of Dark Sun seem out of place in the natural world of Athas. Of course it could be easy to say "a wizard did it" for the existence of these incredibly exotic creatures, but the existence of the Feywild allows for them to be exotic and naturally occurring monsters, who are now trying to eke out their lives in the equally dying world of Athas.

Except, how many monsters are going to be "From the feywild" instead of Athas, simply because it's an easier method? I imagine we're going to see a lot of the tougher, paragon tier monsters being originally "From the feywild". Also, many athasian monsters do seem out of place - which is kind of the point. they're mutated beasts. They're not suposed to "fit" anywhere.

Having the feywild being the source of most/many/some of the more "exotic" monsters, in my mind, belittles what is grand about Athas. Of course, it's a very easy fix for my own table... but I'm not looking forward to the day when I sit down at someone else's Dark Sun table only to find that all of the cooler monsters are actually from another plane.

For what it's worth, yes the feywild can add additional races and make the setting make more sense... but that's not the part about fewer races that bugs me. D&D is D&D - it's not going to make sense anyway. What I like about a smaller number of humanoid races is that it's easier (in my experience) to make them stand out in my players' minds. When you have 30 odd races, the players have a hard time seperating the orcs from the hobgoblins, setting-wise. When you have only 10, that difference is easier to comprehend.

To be honest, though, I don't really have much of an opinion on the number of races matter - it's never been a big enough problem for me to feel as if I need to "fix" it.

 

[Aldarc]

Except, how many monsters are going to be "From the feywild" instead of Athas, simply because it's an easier method?

I don't know. How many?

I imagine we're going to see a lot of the tougher, paragon tier monsters being originally "From the feywild". Also, many athasian monsters do seem out of place - which is kind of the point. they're mutated beasts. They're not suposed to "fit" anywhere.

Imagining is nice, but knowing is better.

Having the feywild being the source of most/many/some of the more "exotic" monsters, in my mind, belittles what is grand about Athas. Of course, it's a very easy fix for my own table... but I'm not looking forward to the day when I sit down at someone else's Dark Sun table only to find that all of the cooler monsters are actually from another plane.

Except we do not know the extent to which this will hold true. So until that time, we are only working the speculative assumptions. I am also not sure how the existence of the Feywild belittles Athas, since the Feywild is a parallel plane that is a part of Athas. Is Athas any less brutal of a world because of the Feywild? Does the Feywild make the sorcerer-kings tame by comparison? Is the red sun of Athas beat down upon players any less because a Feywild exists? How does the Feywild belittle the severe grandness of Athas?

 

[Wik]

Except we do not know the extent to which this will hold true. So until that time, we are only working the speculative assumptions.

Correct. I'm basing my opinions off WotC's recent history in such matters - and they've been very fond of the feywild since 4e. So it doesn't bode well if you hold my views.

I am also not sure how the existence of the Feywild belittles Athas, since the Feywild is a parallel plane that is a part of Athas.

If it's a part of athas, why make it seperate at all? The only reason to have it is to break the natural rules of physics (which another poster mentioned earlier). But a general "shade plane" could do that just as well - why does Athas need a Feywild, and all that entails? The natural world in Athas is already pretty messed up. It does not, in my opinion, need a "even more messed up!" version of itself.

Is Athas any less brutal of a world because of the Feywild?

Yes. Because it is either a place that is less brutal than athas, in which case it would logically be a place of escape for those with the means to do so, or a place that is more brutal, which by its very nature would make Athas less brutal. It cannot be "the same, but different". If it is "the same, but different", it is subtracting from the majesty of Athas by diluting the athasian theme and focus on the wilderness/desert. My two cents, of course.

Does the Feywild make the sorcerer-kings tame by comparison?

No. The SKs will be SKs regardless. But depending on how the Feywild exists, it could affect how the SKs are presented. Will Lalali-Puy of Gulg have Feywild connections? It could happen - even though I hope it doesn't.

Is the red sun of Athas beat down upon players any less because a Feywild exists? How does the Feywild belittle the severe grandness of Athas?

I answered my view on this above. People have presented options on why the feywild exists in Dark Sun, and while some of those ideas are nifty enough, I do not personally believe there is enough there to warrant the feywild's inclusion. But I'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me. Fair enough.

But tell you what. When 4e Dark Sun comes out, I'll give the feywild at least a chance, if you promise me you'll give playing WITHOUT the feywild a chance. Try to see where I'm coming from, and I'll promise you right here and now that I'll try and see if a feywild makes my game any better.

 

[Aldarc]

But tell you what. When 4e Dark Sun comes out, I'll give the feywild at least a chance, if you promise me you'll give playing WITHOUT the feywild a chance. Try to see where I'm coming from, and I'll promise you right here and now that I'll try and see if a feywild makes my game any better.

Sure. I would not particularly mind the lack of the Feywild in Dark Sun. I am curious as to how Dark Sun will be adapted for 4E.

 

[Wik]

Sure. I would not particularly mind the lack of the Feywild in Dark Sun. I am curious as to how Dark Sun will be adapted for 4E.

Henh. It just occured to me that most of the feywild lovers probably "would not... mind" the lack of the feywild on Athas... while many of the so-called "purists" hate it. I wonder if there are many people who absolutely NEED the feywild in their games?

(this is all, by the way, coming from someone whose current campaign has been in the feywild for the better part of a year real time, and about seven levels' worth in campaign terms).

And yeah, I'm curious about a lot of the changes, too. Really, the only things I've seen so far that make me "nervous" are the eladrin/feywild changes, some of the "themes", and the very real possibility that 4e Dark Sun might still require treasure packets/numerous magic items (I've always run Dark Sun as being item-light, which may or may not be a common trend among Dark Sun GMs).

 

[Aldarc]

Henh. It just occured to me that most of the feywild lovers probably "would not... mind" the lack of the feywild on Athas... while many of the so-called "purists" hate it. I wonder if there are many people who absolutely NEED the feywild in their games?

Dark Sun "purists" play 2E Dark Sun. Playing 4E Dark Sun is an admission that aspects of the setting will change.

 

[Wik]

Dark Sun "purists" play 2E Dark Sun. Playing 4E Dark Sun is an admission that aspects of the setting will change.

Ha ha. Call me a Dark Sun purist that hates 2e rules and prefers 4e... but prefers 2e fluff to 4e's. Which pretty much sums everything up.

I wasn't really making much of a point last comment. Just an observation that made me chuckle in regards to the last, like, four pages of this thread.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I don't think a devastated Feywild detracts from Dark Sun, the way the Lost Sea or a City State ruled by a Good Sorcerer King who's a Preserver aiming to become an Avangion detracts from Dark Sun.

 

[Aegeri]

Correct. I'm basing my opinions off WotC's recent history in such matters - and they've been very fond of the feywild since 4e. So it doesn't bode well if you hold my views.

I actually can't think of the last time the Feywild impacted on or had anything significant to do with any of the 4E games I've run. Despite it being oddly important to 4E somehow. One of the adventures goes to the Feywild for a bit I think (Trollhaunt Warrens IIRC), but the shadowfell is far more significant.

Given how much they support the Raven Queen and have mentioned the shadowfell in modules/books you'd think it was the Shadowfell they were fond of.

If it's a part of athas, why make it seperate at all? The only reason to have it is to break the natural rules of physics (which another poster mentioned earlier). But a general "shade plane" could do that just as well - why does Athas need a Feywild and all that entails?

Why make up a shade plane when you have an already established plane that does that to begin with? Basically you ask "Why are we not making up something new when we have something that can do this".

You're also completely ignoring all the justifications that Rich Baker has already provided about this.

Yes. Because it is either a place that is less brutal than athas, in which case it would logically be a place of escape for those with the means to do so

Haven't we already covered why this is wrong? Is everyone going to ignore the whole "The feywild in Athas is dying and is only in small scattered pockets". Not to mention the homicidal xenophobic inhabitants.

or a place that is more brutal, which by its very nature would make Athas less brutal.

This just fails to make sense, of all the complaints you make this is just daft.

Does Thay in Forgotten Realms become a pleasant place for a happy holiday because the Abyss is arguably infinitely worse? My idea for a Thay based campaign in FR is all humanoid races are basically slaves and cattle to the local undead (essentially currency and food in that order). I mean, that would really suck as a place to live.

Does that mean when the PCs learn there is a horrible place filled with daemons of incomprehensible evil that suddenly they go "Hey, this place where we're all slaves to be sold and consumed by undead isn't that bad after all it could be daemons!". Probably followed promptly by said individual being eaten by a horde of ghouls alive. Personally I would still absolutely hate Thay because that's where I'm stuck right now. If Thay is terrible I'm probably not wanting to go to the Abyss - but it doesn't in any manner make Thay any less absolutely horrible.

But tell you what. When 4e Dark Sun comes out, I'll give the feywild at least a chance, if you promise me you'll give playing WITHOUT the feywild a chance.

Why would I bother? This is yet another argument from you that makes absolutely zero sense in any manner. Due to the fact the Feywild is dying in Athas, it's in small pockets in immensely isolated places the only way it affects my game in any manner is if I want it to. If I decide to bring it into the game I can do so easily, otherwise it has absolutely zero effect on my game at all.

What point exactly do you think you're making? If I don't see the need to use something that is entirely at my discretion to use I'll see what? That if I don't need to use an element in my game I can easily do so? Especially when it's almost entirely gone and my PCs aren't likely to go there because it's either as bad as Athas normally or worse (with xenophobic inhabitants).