Dragon Article: To Live Defeated

[Aegeri]

It's not even as if I don't think about these kinds of things either. In one of my campaigns I am running, one of the side antagonists is a daemon and it cannot be directly "killed" in any manner. Instead, it needs to be rebound in its prison of stone, which has a ritual of fire cast upon it effectively making it a huge eternally flaming rock. This binds the daemon and prevents it from escaping - unless someone with the ability to generate an immense supernatural cold comes along (he might be loose in the first place because that happened!). The PCs can kill the wendigo as much as they like, he'll keep coming back and so finding a way of rebinding (or weakening - they don't need to do the ritual :O) it is important.

So I am fully for solutions that are creative or needing to dispatch villains in an interesting way. I am just against this sort of vindictive nonsense for the sake of it.

Edit: This is so giving me horrible flashbacks to a long time ago when one of my players wanted to mutilate a captured female antagonists genitals. Let's just say I wasn't at all happy or receptive to the concept.

 

[renau1g]

Edit: This is so giving me horrible flashbacks to a long time ago when one of my players wanted to mutilate a captured female antagonists genitals. Let's just say I wasn't at all happy or receptive to the concept.

I had something similar ( the flashbacks) as well. Mine involved a garrotte, the child of the BBEG who was like Palpatine operating in plain sight, but not touchable, and way too much description from the player... yeah... that ended that game.

 

[Almacov]

Upon further reflection, I think the largest reason this bothers me is that it takes ideas that have existed and been handled outside of the game system for ages, (or handled in-system in very specific ways) and pretends to present them as new mechanics.
The problem being that presenting them with such a shallow catch-all mechanical solution somehow cheapens them in the codification it provides. The situations cease to be special when they're boiled down to swapping out death for something else in an equation of "(HP 0) = X".

The article implies it will give solutions and only gives you what you already know with a 100% useless equation attached.

The topic would be far better served if it focused more heavily on the DM-PC cooperation aspect from the outset, and making things like cutting off a villain from their god-granted power a cool, special event - Rather than one of several cosmetic options for when a tinny digital announcer shouts "FINISH HIM!" at the end of every encounter.

The first page of the article sets a very sour tone for the rest of them.

 

[Dausuul]

This article seems fairly useless to me. Anybody can dream up horrific things to do to defeated foes--some players take positive glee in it. What's needed are:

1) Ways for the players to show mercy to defeated foes, without taking foolish risks.
2) Alternatives to a TPK, for the DM to use when the PCs are defeated.

 

[Tazawa]

I agree that it was a horrible article. Articles listing ways to maim and torture your opponents serve no real purpose. I DM an adult-themed campaign (adult as in mature not as in erotic) and I would feel uncomfortable if a player suggested using many of the options suggested in the article.

The disappointing thing is that the topic has a lot of potential and could help to resolve some common gaming dilemmas. I would have liked an article with:

• suggestions to deal with the 'baby goblin problem'
• ways to deal with evil opponents who surrender and throw themselves at the character's mercy
• methods to redeem villains
• expanded options for the Mark of Justice ritual
• etc.

 

[Mummolus]

Heh, I find it amusing that the main option I'm offering my players along these lines is enslaving their enemies, either for sale or other purposes, and it's not even mentioned in the article. Slavers are a common feature in almost every D&D setting, particularly Dark Sun.

 

[FireLance]

Definitely not what I was expecting, especially since November's In The Works stated that "several of [the novel ways to defeat enemies without killing them] might work in games for younger players, such as our Heroes of Hesiod".

Frankly, I think I'm about as likely to use most of these in a kids' game as Dreamworks is of releasing "How to Blind/Cripple/Curse/Maliciously Polymorph Your Dragon".

 

[Aegeri]

Definitely not what I was expecting, especially since November's In The Works stated that "several of [the novel ways to defeat enemies without killing them] might work in games for younger players, such as our Heroes of Hesiod".

Wow. Someone didn't have any idea what the article actually was when they wrote that.

 

[Runestar]

I actually found that polymorph excerpt somewhat amusing, since I recall a similar scene in that power rangers: dino thunder+ninja force teamup episode. Granted, it could also be the whimsical manner in which the author phrases it.

You transform the enemy into a harmless creature, such as a rabbit, toad, bat, or firefly. Whether you capture the villain afterward for your own purposes—for a trophy, for reeducation, or just to keep an eye on him—is up to you. Careful choice of an insignificant animal appropriately embarrassing for the villain can be quite satisfying.

 

[The Little Raven]

I don't really get the moral outrage or the complaint about "new mechanics" (the article contains exactly zero new mechanics, just suggestions on using existing mechanics). Most of these are relatively tame compared to what I've seen D&D players describe for decades.

Imprisonment: Not exactly deserving of moral outrage.
Blinding: Cutting out someone's eyes is a bit on the graphic side, but blinding someone with a spell isn't. And even the cutting I don't find objectionable when dealing with things like beholders. The Bible has Jesus blinding Paul with light on the road to Damascus until Paul did what he was supposed to. Kids are taught that all the time.
Crippled: This one is rather graphic, as the only options listed are straight up physical mutilation. Adding in some kind of magical malaise would help soften parts of it, but this is one I can understand making people uneasy.
Cursed: Fairly common in children's stories the world round.
Cut Off From Magic: Gandalf did this to Saruman when he broke his staff. This happened to Voldemort when he tried to kill Harry.
Denied a Patron: You get the guy fired or cut him off from his supernatural power ATM.
Eternal Torment: Sounds bad, but it's nothing children aren't taught everyday around the world through Bible study. Lake of fire and all that.
Isolated: The physical mutilation options are a bit graphic, but the telepathic disruption of linguistic capabilities isn't.
Malicious Polymorph: No worse than I've seen referenced in a classic children's movie. Return to Oz, the scene in the Nome King's treasury.
Oubliette: Just a variation on imprisonment, except you intend the person to never be released.
Petrification: I don't really find it morally objectionable. It's actually one of the nicer options.
Plague: This one's a bit messy, as disease is some truly scary stuff.
To the Pain: No worse than I've seen referenced in a classic children's movie. The Princess Bride, the climax scene.
Torn From History: Cool and evocative.
Transmogrification: Turning a villain into a frog oror something like that is relatively common in children's stories.
Waters of Lethe: I've seen a few kid's stories use this device to make a villain into an ally.
Worldbound: Dude can't leave the world. Big deal.

So, yeah, I totally see why someone said that several of the options were appropriate for Heroes of Hesiod, since several of the options come straight out of children's stories.

Much ado about nothing.