Dragon Breath Recharge Question

[Joren]

I don't know if the following argument will help, and I'm at work so I don't have my PHB with me, but I'm going to try nonetheless.

Query:

Does "Dragon must wait 1 round to do so again" = "One round must elapse from the end of Breath1 to the start of Breath2"? All characters/creatures/etc. automatically "wait" from the end of their initiative action until the start of their next initiative action, given the turn-based nature of D&D combat. Moreover, there is no "wait" action allowed under the rules, so the interpretation that a dragon must spend a round "waiting" de facto requires the dragon to undertake an action that is not allowed under the rules.

Thus, I believe the "equation" above is a logical deduction from the wording of the ability.

If the answer to the above query is yes, then the dragon can breathe in sequential rounds (on a roll of 1).

Definition - One round equals the time elapsed from the end of initiative X in round R to the end of initiative X in round (R+1). I believe this is an accurate statement of the definition of a round (attaching "seconds" to this is not a helpful means of analysis given the 3E system).

Example:

Round 1
Initiative 20 - Dragon breathes

Round 2
Initiative 20 - Dragon delays
Initiative 19 - Dragon breathes

One round elapsed, since the time from the end of initiative X (20) in Round 1 to the end of initiative X (20) in Round 2 has passed. If one round must elapse between breaths to meet the definition of "dragon must wait 1 round between breaths" then the dragon has met the requirement.

Joren the Divider

 

[Murrdox]

Joren, very interesting point... and I'd also agree with it. If the dragon simply has to wait from the end of 20 in one round to the end of 20 in the next round... he could delay until 19 and then breathe.

I never thought of that.

 

[kreynolds]

All characters/creatures/etc. automatically "wait" from the end of their initiative action until the start of their next initiative action, given the turn-based nature of D&D combat.

Waiting for your next turn simply because you have to and waiting a specific amount of time to do something that is as an exception to the rules in regards to waiting for your next turn are two entirely different things. I don't see the commonality here. When you're turn is over, you have to wait until your next turn to do anything. When a dragon uses its breath weapon, it has to wait one or more turns before it can use its breath weapon again, though it can continue taking normal actions while it is waiting.

Moreover, there is no "wait" action allowed under the rules, so the interpretation that a dragon must spend a round "waiting" de facto requires the dragon to undertake an action that is not allowed under the rules.

No. Nobody has stated that "wait" is an action, and it doesn't have to be. Furthermore, the claim that there must be a "wait" action in the rules to be able to actually wait is entirely unfounded. Within a normal round, you can cast one spell, say fireball (barring quicken spell, haste, potion of speed, etc). That's it. You get one fireball. No more. But, your turn isn't over. You still have a move or move-equivalent action at your disposal. However, to be able to cast another spell, you have to wait until your next turn.

Waiting already exists. There is no need for it to be an action. Some things are limited in how many times they can be performed within a specified time frame, and casting a spell is one of them. There are exceptions that allow you to cast more than one spell per round, such as haste, just as there are exceptions that let a dragon use its breath weapon more rapidly than normal.

The point is that it is completely unfounded to claim that a "wait" action must be present within the rules, as everyone has to "wait" already. Such an action simply is not necessary.

If one round must elapse between breaths to meet the definition of "dragon must wait 1 round between breaths" then the dragon has met the requirement.

This was actually brought up on the first page. I didn't see the relevance then, but I do now. I still think its a flawed interpretation of the rules though. I'll try to explain. In this example...

Round 1
Initiative 20 - Dragon breathes

Round 2
Initiative 20 - Dragon delays
Initiative 19 - Dragon breathes

...the dragon did not wait one round. In round 1, he breathed. In round two, he moved down the initiative ladder, but a full round did not pass. If he is required to wait for one round before he can breathe again, he did not accomplish this. In your very example, you show the dragon breathing in the first round and the second round, yet there was no waiting period of one round in there, thus he could not have used his breath weapon in round 2.

 

[Joren]

Originally posted by kreynolds

When you're turn is over, you have to wait until your next turn to do anything. When a dragon uses its breath weapon, it has to wait one or more turns before it can use its breath weapon again

Actually, the dragon has to wait for 1d4 rounds, not turns. This is an important distinction. See Murdoxx's quote from the SRD showing the distinction between a round and a turn (about four posts above)

Given what you have stated, my question is:

Does "Wait until your next round" = "wait one round"? I believe it does, for the reasons I stated above. I believe that you do not agree, but I am not clear why you draw this distinction.

However, to be able to cast another spell, you have to wait until your next turn.

This encapsulates what I was trying to point out. All characters "wait" one round between actions, simply by virtue of the fact that they have a limited ability to act in Round 1, and must "wait until [their] next turn." (This argument mixes the use of "round" and "turn" together, but I didn't want to misquote you.)

...the dragon did not wait one round. In round 1, he breathed. In round two, he moved down the initiative ladder, but a full round did not pass.

I think I understand where we are not agreeing on definitions. I believe that you are defining "a full round" to equal "All of one complete round, starting from the top of the initiative". In other words, all combats start with Round 1, and proceed to Round 2, Round 3, etc. Under that definition, in order for the dragon to "wait one round", his "waiting" begins at the top of the initiative of the round after he breathes and finishes at the end of that round.

In contrast, I (and Pielorinho) are defining "wait one round" to mean "wait all of one round, starting from the end of initiative X in Round 1 to the end of initative X in Round 2." This definition is consistent with the definition of a "full round spell," which is why Pielorinho was using the "full round spell" example to illustrate his definition.

Under our definition of "wait one round," the dragon can breathe in consecutive rounds as long as his initative in round 2 is lower than his initiative in round 1. Under your definition of "wait one round," the dragon spends the time from the end of X in round 1 through the start of X in round 3 waiting (or doing something other than breathing).

Does this help clarify the disagreement, kreynolds?

Joren the Divider

 

[Pielorinho]

Joren, very interesting point... and I'd also agree with it. If the dragon simply has to wait from the end of 20 in one round to the end of 20 in the next round... he could delay until 19 and then breathe.

I never thought of that.

but...but...but...

But that was the whole point of my example! A dragon who breathes on initiative 16, watches a wizard begin a summoning spell on iniative 15, waits until that spell is finished casting on next round's initiative 15, and breathes again, is indistinguishable from what Joren said!

Anyway, I'm glad he was able to phrase the point in a way that it made sense .

If this is the case, you run into the same problem I mentioned before where a fighter can attack 100 times in one hour by himself, but he can only attack 6 times in one hour when with 99 other combatants.

Not at all. First, there are 600 rounds in an hour, not 100. Second, there's not a limited number of people that can act in a round.

You seem to be pointing out once again that the idea of sequential combat is a convenient fiction. I agree -- but I also think it's a fiction fundamental to D&D combat. D&D combat revolves around the idea that one person's action in combat finishes before the next person's action begins.

You may want to come up with a combat system that works differently, and I applaud any such efforts. However, you'll also need to redefine a dragon's breath weapon recharge in such a system.

The following quote is definitely not what I"m suggesting:

By YOUR scheme of timing, as I've come to understand it, this is what happens. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding something here. We'll measure in time, 6 seconds equals one round. The dragon is at initiatve 10, wizard 9, fighter 8 and wizard2 is at 7.

0:0 to 0:6 - Dragon breathes and moves 30 feet forwards. Dragon rolls a "3" on his breath weapon.(10)
0:7 to 0:12 - Wizard casts fireball at the dragon and moves 30 feet backwards (9)
0:13 to 0:18- Fighter moves forwards 20 feet and attacks the dragon (8)
0:19 to 0:24 - Wizard2 casts magic missle at the dragon (7)
0:25 to 0:30 - Dragon breathes again (3 rounds have passed, or 18 seconds) and remains standing

Not at all! Here's how I see it happening:

0:0 to 0 The following things happen in the following order; the amount of time each one takes is undetermined, but is treated for game purposes as if it happens instantaneously (since presumably 100,000 combatants may act sequentially in a single combat round, and every single combatant's action is fully resolved before the next combatant's action begins);
-Dragon breathes
-WIzard casts fireball
-Fighter attacks dragon
-Wizard casts magic missile at dragon

0:6 to 0:12: The following things happen in the following order; the amount of time each one takes is undetermined, but is treated for game purposes as if it happens instantaneously (since presumably 100,000 combatants may act sequentially in a single combat round, and every single combatant's action is fully resolved before the next combatant's action begins);
-Dragon does something else, presuming it rolled a 3 on its 1d4 roll
-Other folks act.

Daniel

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's right.

A bystander with a stopwatch would notice some odd effects.

A fourth level fighter with Spring Attack is performing a training drill - run fifteen feet, hack at the training target, and run back to his initial mark.

Two cycles through this drill takes twelve seconds, according to the stopwatch.

Later, they run a team drill. Four fourth level fighters with Spring Attack perform the same task sequentially - the first runs up, hits the target, runs back, and calls out to the second. The second does the same, and calls out to the third; the third goes; then the fourth goes. They perform this cycle twice.

Stopwatch says: twelve seconds. This despite the fact that the swordsman had to wait around while three other people did exactly the same thing as he was doing before.

It's an artifact of the cyclic initiative system. So what? It's better than trying to make things simultaneous.

The wording of the MMII entry is ambiguous. It must be, or the debate would be unsustainable.

Given that, and the fact that several other sources make it obvious how the recharge works, it seems sensible to me to resolve the ambiguity in a fashion that agrees with the other sources.

-Hyp.

 

[kreynolds]

Actually, the dragon has to wait for 1d4 rounds, not turns. This is an important distinction.

You misinterpret. What I meant by "turn" was the dragon's turn in the round. Given the context I was using for "turn", which is the same as the quote from the SRD, they mean the same thing.

See Murdoxx's quote from the SRD showing the distinction between a round and a turn (about four posts above)

That was the context of which I was speaking.

Does "Wait until your next round" = "wait one round"? I believe it does, for the reasons I stated above. I believe that you do not agree, but I am not clear why you draw this distinction.

You are correct that I don't agree. I've stated why, but I'll get to that again in a second.

This encapsulates what I was trying to point out. All characters "wait" one round between actions, simply by virtue of the fact that they have a limited ability to act in Round 1, and must "wait until [their] next turn."

"Waiting to do" means that you "can't do" yet. Why? You're waiting. If you weren't waiting, you'd just do it. But you can't. Because you're waiting. You are stating you don't have to "wait to do" to "wait". In your example, the dragon never waited. He breathed two rounds in a row without "waiting to do". You can't do both.

(This argument mixes the use of "round" and "turn" together, but I didn't want to misquote you.)

It's OK. I know what you're saying.

I think I understand where we are not agreeing on definitions. I believe that you are defining "a full round" to equal "All of one complete round, starting from the top of the initiative".

No. Here's how I define it, so to speak. You get one round in the initiative count. You can't take actions except during your round in the initiative count (there are exceptions though, when specifically called out, such as speaking, but this isn't one of them). At the end of your round, you have to wait until your round comes around again before you can do anything. Thus...

In contrast, I (and Pielorinho) are defining "wait one round" to mean "wait all of one round, starting from the end of initiative X in Round 1 to the end of initative X in Round 2." This definition is consistent with the definition of a "full round spell," which is why Pielorinho was using the "full round spell" example to illustrate his definition.

Under our definition of "wait one round," the dragon can breathe in consecutive rounds as long as his initative in round 2 is lower than his initiative in round 1. Under your definition of "wait one round," the dragon spends the time from the end of X in round 1 through the start of X in round 3 waiting (or doing something other than breathing).

I know how you and Pielorinho are defining "wait one round". I simply disagree with your assessments of the rules. You get one round in the initiative count. That's it. The rest of the time, you do nothing.

Does this help clarify the disagreement, kreynolds?

I already knew the basis of the disagreement. It was clear to me where the two of you stood. As I said, I simply disagreed.

 

[Murrdox]

Not at all! Here's how I see it happening:

0:0 to 0 The following things happen in the following order; the amount of time each one takes is undetermined, but is treated for game purposes as if it happens instantaneously (since presumably 100,000 combatants may act sequentially in a single combat round, and every single combatant's action is fully resolved before the next combatant's action begins);
-Dragon breathes
-WIzard casts fireball
-Fighter attacks dragon
-Wizard casts magic missile at dragon

0:6 to 0:12: The following things happen in the following order; the amount of time each one takes is undetermined, but is treated for game purposes as if it happens instantaneously (since presumably 100,000 combatants may act sequentially in a single combat round, and every single combatant's action is fully resolved before the next combatant's action begins);
-Dragon does something else, presuming it rolled a 3 on its 1d4 roll
-Other folks act.

Daniel

*whew* Okay, I'll chaulk it up to the fact that I was at work and half brain dead that I didn't seem to be able to figure out that we were on the same page.

I think your wizard example confused me because I didn't know that you were talking about the NEXT round. I thought you were saying:

ROUND ONE
20 - Dragon Breaths
19 - Wizard casts a spell
18 - Dragon can breath

when I think you meant to be saying

ROUND ONE
20 - Dragon Breaths
19 - Wizard casts a full round spell

ROUND TWO
20 - Dragon does something (could delay)
19 - Wizard has finished his full round spell - Dragon can breathe
18 - If Dragon delayed he could now breathe again.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I don't even bother with the "delay until after your original intiative" deal.

Round 1. Dragon is hasted. He breathes. He rolls a 1 on his 1d4. He still has a partial action, but he can't breathe again, because he has to wait one round. He breathed in round 1; it's still round 1.

Round 2. He breathed in round 1; it's round 2. He's waited one round, so he breathes again.

-Hyp.

 

[kreynolds]

The wording of the MMII entry is ambiguous. It must be, or the debate would be unsustainable.

Given that, and the fact that several other sources make it obvious how the recharge works, it seems sensible to me to resolve the ambiguity in a fashion that agrees with the other sources.

I agree that the wording is ambiguous, but I don't know that anyone is arguing that the wording in MMII should replace the wording in MMI. Well, at least I'm not (never was).