Dragon Breath Recharge Question

[Murrdox]

Okay, forget about WAITING.

If a dragon breathes, and then a spellcaster casts a spell, have 6 seconds passed for the dragon?

As far as I understand the rules, no.

Everything in D&D occurs in sequence, but simultaneously at the same time, even though no actions ACTUALLY take place at the same time.

So a dragon finishes breathing, and the wizard casts a full round action spell, all in the span of 6 seconds. Even thought the dragon goes BEFORE the wizard, and their actions don't take place simultaneously, they act in sequence.

Thus, when the wizard casts his full-round spell, no time is passing for the dragon - he's already used up his 6 seconds of time. The wizard is using those same 6 seconds the dragon breathed in to cast.

Does this make complete sense? Not really. But that's the way it goes, as I understand it. If I'm completely off base, please someone correct me.

Otherwise, if time passes when you aren't taking your turn... you end up with weird situations.

For example, you have a fighter.

Fighter is practicing swinging his sword at a target. He practices for one hour. This turns into 600 6-second blocks (rounds)
Thus, Fighter gets to swing his sword at the target 600 times in an hour.

Now, Fighter is in a war with 99 other combatants. The battle lasts one hour. This turns into 600 6-second blocks (rounds). This time, because there are 99 OTHER combatants, Fighter only gets to swing his sword 6 times in one hour.

Does this make sense?

Each turn of combat uses the SAME 6 seconds of time, even though NONE of the combatants act simultaneously.

 

[the Jester]

No, really, what do you guys think?

I've always played it that dragons can indeed breathe in two rounds running, but I noticed the change in the MM2, which made me wonder if they'd alway meant for there to be a nonbreathing round between breath rounds.

The Fiend Folio doesn't have any creatures listed as Dragons, but the description of the sunwyrm's breath weapon (its type is dragon) says:

A sunwyrm breathes a 90-foot line of burning yellow energy every 1d4 rounds...

"Every" one round is pretty clear, but the monsters with breath weapons in the FF have extremely varied recharge rates so it isn't a good indicator of general cases. I think it makes a good argument for both sides though- maybe all dragon breath weapons should have the sunwyrm's "every 1d4 rounds" description, or maybe since they don't there must be a recharge rate.

Anyhow, what about my question above?

 

[Pielorinho]

Okay, forget about WAITING.

If a dragon breathes, and then a spellcaster casts a spell, have 6 seconds passed for the dragon?

As far as I understand the rules, no.

You raise a good point, inasmuch as everything is assumed to happen simultaneously, even though the rules describe it as happening sequentially.

However, if we're going to hold the dragon to an artificial, rules-described limitation (every 1d4 rounds), I submit that we must use that described rules limitation when determining how time passes.

If we interpret the dragon's restriction halfway within the sequential nature of the rules and halfway within the simultaneous nature of how things are assumed to be happening, then we're being inconsistent.

Strictly within the rules, one round has passed between the dragon's actions in round 1 and round 2 of combat. The rules don't describe how long the dragon must wait if things are assumed to happen simultaneously; they describe how long the dragon must wait within the artificial sequential rounds of D&D combat.

If we bring in simultaneity, we may equally well assume that one round must pass between moments that the dragon begins to breathe. The rules simply don't describe simultaneity, so we don't know what assumption would be correct.

Daniel

 

[Murrdox]

If we interpret the dragon's restriction halfway within the sequential nature of the rules and halfway within the simultaneous nature of how things are assumed to be happening, then we're being inconsistent.

Strictly within the rules, one round has passed between the dragon's actions in round 1 and round 2 of combat. The rules don't describe how long the dragon must wait if things are assumed to happen simultaneously; they describe how long the dragon must wait within the artificial sequential rounds of D&D combat.Daniel

I don't see how it's being inconsistant. If a Dragon breathes fire, and rolls a 4 on his D4, and then on that same turn 4 wizards cast full round action spells, then on the dragon's turn, does he get to breath again?

No, because only 1 round has passed. FIVE characters (including the dragon) have taken their round's worth of action, but only ONE ROUND (ie 6 second block) has passed. How often a dragon can breath, or how ANY durations are determined have nothing to do with how many other people are in combat.

A Bard's song lasts for 3 rounds (or is it 5?) after he stops singing. Does this mean that if he stops singing at initiative 10, and then enemies act at 9,8, and 7 before one of his allies acts at 5 that the song has worn off? No. 3 rounds means 18 seconds. The bard's ally is acting the SAME round the bard stopped singing, not 3 rounds LATER.

Melf's acid arrow does acid damage for a number of rounds after it has been cast. When do you apply the damage? You apply the damage when the caster's turn comes up again, or in other words, the NEXT ROUND. You wouldn't cast the spell, and then start applying damage during everyone else's actions... all of that is happening in the SAME 6 second block, not new ones.

If a spell lasts for 10 rounds, and I cast it, the spell will expire after I have taken MY turn 10 more times. It doesn't expire after 10 other people have taken their actions. If ten people go after me in initiative, my spell doesn't expire before it's my turn again.

 

[Pielorinho]

I don't see how it's being inconsistant. If a Dragon breathes fire, and rolls a 4 on his D4, and then on that same turn 4 wizards cast full round action spells, then on the dragon's turn, does he get to breath again?

Murrdox, I'm sorry, but I have no idea why you think I'm suggesting that he would. Let me repeat:

The wizard who cast a summoning spell didn't cause the six-seconds to pass, any more than an egg-timer causes three minutes to pass. Both are simply useful tools for measuring the passage of time.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

Let me elaborate:

If you have three egg-timers counting down three minutes each, when they're done timing, nine minutes haven't passed. Similarly, when three spellcasters have each finished casting a full-round-casting-time spell, eighteen seconds haven't passed; rather, six seconds and change have passed (assuming they all neither started nor ended their six-second-spell at the same instant). These periods overlap.

However, in the sequential nature of D&D combat, the dragon's action is completely finished at initiative 16 before the wizard begins his action at initiative 15. The dragon begins waiting for its next turn as soon as it's done with its current turn.

The wizard then takes an action, the casting of a one-full-round spell, which will last for six seconds, or for one full round.

Just to make sure it waited long enough (using the wizard as a primitive egg-timer), the dragon delays its action until after the wizard has finished casting his spell.

Once the wizard is completely finished with his action (according to D&D's sequential combat rules), the dragon breathes again.

D&D's combat is sequential. Given that, the dragon has unambiguously waited for one full round, as measured by the time it took the wizard to cast a one-full-round-casting-time spell, before breathing again.

Daniel

 

[Murrdox]

There you go. I guess your last post confused me.

Then if a dragon needs to wait at least 6 seconds between breathing, he can only breathe at least every other round, unless we want to start coming up with some wacky mechanic where breathing takes 3 seconds, so a dragon can breathe, start to recharge, and then on his next turn, finish recharging for 3 seconds and breathe again (ie the dragon could breathe, move, and then move and breath on his next turn)

Since there isn't any smaller portion of measuring time than 6 second blocks, we can't do this. The dragon needs to wait a round in between using his breath weapon.

I think that the current mechanic of the system is that once the dragon's round is over, he needs to wait one round, and then on the NEXT round, he can breath. You can't start his re-charge time on the same round in which he breathed.

Thus, you need to say

Round 1: Breathe
Round 2: Recharge (and attack, whatever)
Round 3: Breathe

You can't say:

Round 1: Breathe, start recharging (while moving, etc)
Round 2: Finish recharging (while moving, etc) Breathe.

 

[Murrdox]

Let me elaborate:

If you have three egg-timers counting down three minutes each, when they're done timing, nine minutes haven't passed. Similarly, when three spellcasters have each finished casting a full-round-casting-time spell, eighteen seconds haven't passed; rather, six seconds and change have passed (assuming they all neither started nor ended their six-second-spell at the same instant). These periods overlap.

However, in the sequential nature of D&D combat, the dragon's action is completely finished at initiative 16 before the wizard begins his action at initiative 15. The dragon begins waiting for its next turn as soon as it's done with its current turn.

D&D's combat is sequential. Given that, the dragon has unambiguously waited for one full round, as measured by the time it took the wizard to cast a one-full-round-casting-time spell, before breathing again.

Daniel

When the dragon finishes breathing, it doesn't sit there for 6 seconds not doing anything while the wizard is casting a spell. No time passes for the dragon. His time overlaps with the time the wizard is using. Thus, the dragon is not waiting. Since the dragon won initiative, he gets to resolve HIS 6 seconds of time before the wizard gets to resolve HIS 6 seconds of time. We're still talking about the SAME 6 seconds of time.

Imagine both the wizard and the dragon have stopwatches.

After the dragon has breathed, and the wizard has cast his spell, both stopwatches read 6 seconds have passed.

 

[Pielorinho]

When the dragon finishes breathing, it doesn't sit there for 6 seconds not doing anything while the wizard is casting a spell. No time passes for the dragon. His time overlaps with the time the wizard is using

Technically, this is incorrect: D&D considers almost all actions to occur sequentially in combat. Otherwise, if a dragon breathes on initiative count 16, the wizard who casts a spell on initiative 15 would need to make a concentration check due to damage taken while casting a spell. Because D&D doesn't work that way, however, it assumes that the caster does not make a con check: any action performed on initiative count 16 is completed and over with by the time the wizard begins his action on count 15.

The casting of a one-full-round spell is excepted from this rule to some extent: once such a spell is begun, it consumes the entire next six seconds, meaning that any damage taken by the caster during that time prompts a con check. Note that in my example, however, the dragon didn't breathe at any point during the casting of the one-full-round spell, so this is a tangent.

Note also that although the DMG recommends doing away with this rigid sequentiality in rare circumstances, simultaneity is the exception rather than the rule.

D&D has the artificial concept of "turns" and "rounds," in which one person acts, then another person acts. The limits on how often a dragon can breathe are built upon this artificial concept; if you do away with sequential actions, you leave us with no basis on which to determine how often a dragon can breathe.

Daniel

 

[Murrdox]

Technically, this is incorrect: D&D considers almost all actions to occur sequentially in combat.

If this is the case, you run into the same problem I mentioned before where a fighter can attack 100 times in one hour by himself, but he can only attack 6 times in one hour when with 99 other combatants.

Actions DO occur sequentially, I'll grant you that. HOWEVER, in terms of realtime, all action that takes place over the course of a combat round happens at the same time. It is simply RESOLVED in sequence.

We have a Dragon, a fighter, and 2 wizards.

By YOUR scheme of timing, as I've come to understand it, this is what happens. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding something here. We'll measure in time, 6 seconds equals one round. The dragon is at initiatve 10, wizard 9, fighter 8 and wizard2 is at 7.

0:0 to 0:6 - Dragon breathes and moves 30 feet forwards. Dragon rolls a "3" on his breath weapon.(10)
0:7 to 0:12 - Wizard casts fireball at the dragon and moves 30 feet backwards (9)
0:13 to 0:18- Fighter moves forwards 20 feet and attacks the dragon (8)
0:19 to 0:24 - Wizard2 casts magic missle at the dragon (7)
0:25 to 0:30 - Dragon breathes again (3 rounds have passed, or 18 seconds) and remains standing

What REALLY happens is this:
0:0 to 0:6 Dragon breaths and moves 30 feet forwards. Dragon rolls a "3" on his breath weapon (10)
0:0 to 0:6 Wizard casts fireball at the dragon and moves 30 feet backwards (9)
0:0 to 0:6 Fighter moves forwards 20 feet and attacks the dragon (8)
0:0 to 0:6 Wizard2 casts magic missle at the dragon (7)
0:7 to 0:12 - Dragon does a full attack against the fighter (after this the dragon must wait 12 more seconds before breathing)

So, while action follows in the INITIATIVE sequence, everything happens at the exact same moment of time. If this is wrong, then I'm completely wrong in my interpretation of how time works in this game. I don't have the PHB in front of me, but here's something from the SRD

THE COMBAT ROUND
Each round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. Anything a person could reasonably do in 6 seconds, a character can do in 1 round.
When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence that character performs his entire round's worth of actions.
There are no simultaneous actions. All effects of a character's action fully resolve before the next character acts. A character cannot split an action to allow another character to act between portions.

Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

Character's TURNS act in sequence, but everyone is acting on the SAME round.

The last part in bold says that an effect that lasts ONE ROUND would expire just before the initiative number in which it was started. Now, you could say that if a dragon rolls a 1 on his D4, then his "can't breathe" effect lasts until just before his initiative, which means when it is his turn, he can breathe again. This might be true, depending on the wording of the breath weapon.