Dragon Breath Recharge Question

[kreynolds]

Paralysis? Huh?

Here...

If it means #1, then a dragon who must wait 4 rounds between breathing may do nothing else during those 4 rounds.

...you said it. Not me. If "do nothing else" is not what you meant, then what did you mean?

You breathe in your action, then wait for your next action. Your next action happens one round later.

Right, but you didn't "wait" during your _last_ action. You breathed on your last action, and if you breathed on your last action, how did you wait?

While you waited for your next action, one round passed.

But not a round in which you waited, as you breathed during the last one.

You can measure that passage of a round by having someone cast a one-full-round-casting-time spell right after your turn ends.

But as far as I can tell, it doesn't change anything...

Dragon - Round 1: Breathes
Wizard - Round 1: Casts summon spell
Dragon - Round 2: Waits to breathe
Wizard - Round 2: Spell completed, casts another summon spell.
Dragon - Round 3: Breathes
Wizard - Round 3: Spell completed, casts....rinse and repeat.

 

[kreynolds]

Yes, but only in the case of a character allocating skill points or having the requisite in-character knowledge, neither of which becomes metagaming.

Your character attacks mine with a dagger. The next time our characters meet, it's metagaming for me to assume that you have a dagger?

I might allow professional monster hunters to appear every 1d4 campaigns. :-D

 

[Zhure]

Your character attacks mine with a dagger. The next time our characters meet, it's metagaming for me to assume that you have a dagger?

No, but there's a subtle difference between assuming a character is still using a dagger and deciphering a dragon's random breathing pattern. With enough observations it'd mighjt be possible to assume that a dragon has a recharge rate, or it might not. To even get a large enough sampling to determine the range is 1-4 would take a minimum of being breathed on five times. Hardly any adventurer will be subjected to a satisfactory number of breath attacks from dragons to be certain that's the limit. Adding to the confusion, the character would need to get breath-rate statistics from different breeds of dragons, and each might be different.

Dragons are rare and powerful creatures, and blithely assuming PC's have enough experience with them to make such a mathematical preditiction seems like folly to me. I can certainly understand someone recognizing a dragon sometimes skips a round or two between breaths (regardless of which interpretation is used), but even that could be ascribed to merely a dragon being canny or marshalling what might be a limited resource. Unless someone's seen a bunch of dragons breathe a bunch of iterations over the course of a large period of time, there won't be any exact prediction of their breath-attack pattern.

To simplify it, I require a specific knowledge skill, PrC or a lot of prior experience before that's "common knowledge."

Greg

 

[Chacal]

As a non native english speaker, I can't answer what "wait 1 round" really means. Just that if "waiting one round" equals waiting next round, there isn't much point at telling it unless it's just badly written.
But as a DM, I think having a dragon breathing every round is quite bland and boring, so I would prefer the "don't breath in 2 consecutive rounds" approach.

Chacal

 

[Pielorinho]

...you said it. Not me. If "do nothing else" is not what you meant, then what did you mean?

This is a side-point and not relevant to the main conversation, so I won't explain it further, except to say that my quote is substantively different from suggesting that the dragon is paralyzed. Careful with those paraphrases.

Right, but you didn't "wait" during your _last_ action. You breathed on your last action, and if you breathed on your last action, how did you wait?

You don't have to wait one action; you have to wait one round.

But not a round in which you waited, as you breathed during the last one.

But as far as I can tell, it doesn't change anything...

Dragon - Round 1: Breathes
Wizard - Round 1: Casts summon spell
Dragon - Round 2: Waits to breathe
Wizard - Round 2: Spell completed, casts another summon spell.
Dragon - Round 3: Breathes
Wizard - Round 3: Spell completed, casts....rinse and repeat.

One round passed between the dragon's first action and the dragon's second action. That's what I'm saying. The dragon acts during the first round. A full round elapses before it gets to act during the second round. You can measure this elapsing of a full round by observing that a full-round-casting-time spell was cast after the dragon finished breathing in the first round and before the dragon breathes in the second round.

In fact, in all situations, a full round passes between a character's actions.

Daniel

 

[kreynolds]

This is a side-point and not relevant to the main conversation...

Then why did you bring it up in the first place?

I won't explain it further, except to say that my quote is substantively different from suggesting that the dragon is paralyzed.

You said it "may do nothing else". Paralyzed creatures can't do anything. Simple answer to a simple statement. Whether or not my answer of 'paralysis' is correct to your statement is irrelevant. The point is that you stated the dragon "may do nothing else", which is not implied in the rules in any way shape or form.

Careful with those paraphrases.

What did you expect me to read into that? By making such a simple statement, you were saying that a dragon can't do anything, not even take a 5-foot step. I can handle a paraphrase just fine, but you could be a little more specific and avoid simple statements like that, or at the very least, explain what you mean instead of blaming me.

You don't have to wait one action; you have to wait one round.

We're actually talking about the same thing, but thanks for pointing that out anyway.

One round passed between the dragon's first action and the dragon's second action.

Yeah, but he breathed that last round, so he didn't wait.

The dragon acts during the first round.

Yes.

A full round elapses before it gets to act during the second round.

Yes.

You can measure this elapsing of a full round by observing that a full-round-casting-time spell was cast after the dragon finished breathing in the first round and before the dragon breathes in the second round.

Except he can't breathe in the second round, because he didn't wait one round.

In fact, in all situations, a full round passes between a character's actions.

OK. So, the dragon's round official starts just before his action. So he breathes. Just before his action in round 2, he can't breathe. Why? He didn't wait a full round.

 

[Pielorinho]

You occasionally switch into an argument mode where you dissect a person's post sentence by sentence. I consider that neither a useful nor a respectful mode of argument, and I have no interest in continuing the debate in that mode.

Daniel

 

[kreynolds]

You occasionally switch into an argument mode where you dissect a person's post sentence by sentence. I have no interest in continuing the debate in that mode.

I was addressing each point separately. I could do that in one giant post without separating it by quotes, but I'd rather not. It's just not my style. I wasn't "interrupting" you, as I've heard that some people take it that way. Your posts were addressing more and more points at a time, and it's easier for me to seperate those points and address each of them one by one. That's all.

I consider that neither a useful nor a respectful mode of argument...

In regards to this edit of yours, the only thing I can say is that I find it disrespectful of you to twist this thread to bash me. Not cool. I was nothing but polite to you, and this is how you return it...

 

[Murrdox]

You don't have to wait one action; you have to wait one round.

So we're agreed that the dragon has to wait one round?

A round equals 6 seconds. Thus, a dragon has to wait at least 6 seconds before it can breathe again.

Attempting to break down the TIME it takes a dragon to breathe is futile, there's no mechanic for how long a standard action is. So we're not going to go there.

Turn 1 (0-6 Seconds) Dragon breathes - we'll assume he starts recharging right on the 6-second mark.
Turn 2 (7-12 Seconds) Dragon does whatever else, and also recharges. At 12 seconds, 1 round has passed, and the dragon can breathe again. However, his turn is at an end.
Turn 3 (13-18 Seconds) Dragon can breathe again.

Difference in time: Starts recharge at T6, is fully charged at T12, breathes again at T13. Result? Dragon waits 6 seconds, ie 1 round before breathing.

He can't breath in turn 2 because he hasn't waited 6 seconds yet. Don't go trying to argue that since breathing doesn't take a full round, he can start recharging after 3 seconds and then breathe at 10 seconds or something, because there is no game mechanic for measuring "half rounds" so that won't work.

 

[Biliruben]

I do get your drift though. I just don't see the relevance of your comparison.

I thought the comparison made it beyond crystal clear. I don't think there's a chance that after all of these points made against your interpretation that anything I'll say will change your mind, but I can't resist.

So, let me break it down the way I see it:

Given:
1 round = 6 seconds
"Wait" = Informal. To delay; postpone

Scenario:
Adventurers meet a dragon, dragon meets the adventurers, combat begins with Round 1

Round 1 begins at +0 seconds:
+1 seconds: Dragon breathes. DM rolls 1d4 and rolls up 1, the dragon must wait 1 round before breating again.

Round 2 begins at +6 seconds:
+7 seconds: Dragon may breathe again.

So, did the Dragon wait 6 seconds until breathing again? Yes.
Does 6 seconds = 1 round? Yes.

Therefore, did the Dragon wait 1 round? Yes.

And by waiting 1 round, did the dragon still get to breathe on a round immidiately following the previous? Yes.