Dragon Challenge help my friend B.A.D.D. !

Antimagic field is a 10' emanation from the center of the caster, so for a creature as big as a dragon it only protects a very small portion. It gives an example of how pieces of a large creature extend beyond the protected area.

A polymorphed creature gains no extraordinary qualities of the form taken, but it doesn't state that it loses the qualities it has. So yes, the polymorphed version would in theory still have his natural armor.

But if you try to put an antimagic field on yourself while polymorphed, you're just going to suppress the spell and revert back to dragon.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Ahh well, I knew there was a flaw in my plan!!!!

I know this is stretching it but could the dragon wish that the Polymorph Spell could not be suppressed by an Anti-Magic field?

Btw Jairami, does the BAB thing work?
 

Oh yeah, and if it's just gonna be a duel, have the dragon and his sorcerer buddy start off by throwing (assuming mass haste was somewhere in that 1 round prep time) two mordenkainen's disjunctions from mid air to begin with.

That should, if either is a mage worth his salt, take the party down several irreparable notches. And very telling notches as that.
 

maddman75 said:
Remember that the dragon is a 19th level sorcerer - this is the most important. The dragon's abilities will be enhanced by magic before the group ever gets close.

First, give him Contingency saying "If I get below 100 hit points, cast heal"

Second, open the battle with a Time Stop. During the stop, get improved invisible, take a move (so they don't know where you are at) and gate in a couple Balors.

The time stop lets off, the characters have two balors to deal with and the dragon appears to be gone. Another time stop, buff with stoneskin and haste. If you have time, summon some more demons. MIght have to use some Summon Monster VIII, only 4 9th level spells.

Now cast a harm and throw it on one of the characters - (Rule lawyers - can a dragon deliver a touch attack with a flyby attack?) If it isn't houseruled, this is harsh. Remember the dragon is invisible, they will get no dex and he gets and extra +4 to hit. If the demons don't finish them off, use a breath weapon.

If you get dispelled, imp invis again and MOVE. Dragons have a huge movement rate. Move away, buff, come at them again.

This battle should not even be remotely fair. Dragons do not get to be Great Wyrms by landing on the ground and letting adventurers cut them up.

This is what is silly about BADD. There's no reason that a 19th level sorcerer pull this off. In fact, 20th level characters are better spell casters with more relevant magic items. If it comes down to just slinging spells, then the group, probably having at least 2 spell casters plus any cohorts, can do it better. If the dragon sets up a leadersihp feat chain, then there's no reason why the PCs can't. Then it becomes 4+ leadership chains versus one. About the only Antimagic field that works is a triple enlarged one - and any smart players would drop some disjunctions to remove any buffs the dragon has, so the antimagic field should be a moot point anyway.

If the dragon acts like a wizard with more HP, then most of his abilities aren't being utilized.

The main problem that a dragon faces when going against a group of adventurers is that there's no action parity. The group will probably end up taking 4 times the actions of the dragon, until some people drop. The dragon needs to negate this advantage by

Taking measures to negate the actions of certain characters. Whether it's flying to avoid melee charaters (but only an idiot 20th level fighter won't have a way to close with flyers), or attempting to disable characters with spells (not recomended).

Getting people to waste actions. Protections and illusions can help alot. However, the group can do the same thing, if with some what reduced effect since their defenses need to be spread out more. Also, since the group has a 4-1 advantage on actions, casting the appropriate countermeasure isn't as great a sacrifice. However, if the dragon can distract PCs with illusions or something, then it's a good idea. Except it probably won't work on skilled players.

Getting more actions. Everyone will be hasted until it starts getting dispelled/slowed. Then it will probably be renewed. With haste, the actions are 8 to 2, so the dragon doesn't really gain anything. However, going 8 - 1 would be worse. However, there are other means. Simulacrum is one of the best. Interestingly, it looks like it can actually break parity - when cast by the dragon it should be much better than if cast by the PCs. Based off my reading of the spell, a GW red casting simulacrum will still produce a GW red dupe. Sure, it will be weaker, but it should keep all GW qualities but have less HP, HD, and skills. It's spells and breath weapon should be the same. On the other hand, an Simulacrumed wizard will be 11th level, with crappy equipment.
 

Victim said:


This is what is silly about BADD.

??????

I agree with you that the presented tactics would be highly unlikely to work.

I am not certain how that makes wanting to work on solid dragon tactics silly.

If the CR25 is presumed correct, then 4 25th level characters should destroy the dragon with relative ease. I do not consider it a stretch to further estimate that 6 20th levels characters could not handle it. They may face some danger, but the odds are highly in their favor.

And that is fine. A superior force should always be expected to slay the dragon.

I don't like B.A.D.D. because I think that the dragon has some imperative that it must win. I like B.A.D.D. because it is SILLY when a group of chars wipes out a dragon with ease because it was played stupidly.

If the players defeat a dragon that is played well, they have accomplished something. I WANT the dragons to die. But I want them to die gloriously. I do not want them to be simply disposed of.

A Great Wyrm in an open air toe-to-toe with 6 L20 chars is dead meat. I don't care if the DM has the tactical mind of Hannibal.

I am curious why these players are afraid of a fair fight!?! heh
 

Well in all fairness to the dragon, I'd disallow dragon slaying weapons and the like, otherwise the dragons fighting 4-6 guys designed to kill it and equipped with +7 weapons against it.

The dragon might have a pretty good chance if he picks his spells with the purpose of winning this fight (and nothing else) just like the characters are likely to do.

Depending on the books allowed the Dragon may want to take arcane preperation and some quickened spells and metamagic spells.
Of course everyone is going to be super fire resistant so overcoming that will be a problem for the Dragon.
Giving him Mords disjunction may likely even things up alot, as can a anti-magic shell and then engaging spell casters in melee (or better yet snatching them and flying away with them for a time).

Mazes and the like can also buy him some breathing space. Its hard to say, but a dragon maxed out to win can probably do so.
Also remember that alot of dragons have access to vast amounts of treasure,which is more or less figured into thier CRs (look in FRHB at one of the wyrms there, he has lots of magic items on him rings of prot, etc).
 
Last edited:

Victim said:
and any smart players would drop some disjunctions to remove any buffs the dragon has, so the antimagic field should be a moot point anyway.

Your players must have incredible dice, that or you need to re-read the chance a disjunction has of taking out an anti-magic field.

And disjunction isn't such a prevalent opening tactic against high-level parties, especially ones suiting up to fight a dragon. Maybe other PC's, but Dragon's don't generally carry all that much in the way of magical items. Which is silly, but it's the generalization.

<shrugs>
 

Okay, Disjunction isn't that great against AMF. I couldn't remember if it knocked it down automatically like all other spells, or had a tough time. Still, it's a halfway decent chance especially when the caster level is boosted (depends on what supplements are used), especially since not much else works.

The main reason I'd use Disjunction is as the best Dispel Magic. Since it automatically takes down spells, you can use it to strip away all the dragon's buffs and contingencies, or vice versa. Why take the chance that you fail the coin flip dispel dispel check on the Contingency: Heal, when you can take it down without much of a fuss. I'd rather burn the levell 9 spell and not have to worry about killing it twice. Plus it removes the dragon's protections, and can strip away some of the items that it's using.

The most interesting thing is that both parties, with the wide range of movement magic, can chose to leave at any time. I'd think the team has the advantage here, as 1 D-anchor can ruin a dragon's escape, but it only catches one character. THen the group can leave, use a True Res on a scroll to raise the now dead character that got left behind :), and return when whatever trick the dragon used runs out.
 

Hi There!

I am the actual player that will control the dragon. I am surprised because my plans were to use the anti magic field thinking that no player would bring Mord. Disjunction to fight a Dragon.
But 3 or 4 of you would bring Mord. Disjunction...
Well, if I can hold the AMF up, my chances are high, because of some rules for this encounter: No flee (more than 1000 ft away), no artifacts, 10' spells count from the caster skin, not its center, no scrolls, and some other rules.
I hope the other players don't see this forum, but imagine a dragon with +62 on attack with power attack feat doing snatches on the players 1 by 1 (players with AC no more than 20 because of the AMF) so it's a +42 damage for sure on each attack. I have DMG reduction 20/+3 and with AMF no one will have magic weapons to bypass the DR...

My problem is: what if they bring AMF down? Maybe cast maze on myself to have time to build some defenses... (I can choose not to leave the maze and stay at maximum 10 minutes alone buffing up)
Any Ideas?

Thanks,
Alessandro.
 

Don't forget about gear I mean treasure. :cool:

A CR25 Dragon has a minimum of 18 magic items in its horde (pg171 DMG). :D

Hmm, isn't a CR25 Red Dragon going to have 100HD? 1CR=50% increase, 5CR=250% or is there some other rule for this?

If it is 100HD then:
1,650HP (remember neg energy protection for harm)
26 Feats
14,000 skill points (100 Spell Craft and Jump for free)

Nice Dragon trick...Hover. Can we say 300' debris cloud? All creatures inside it are blinded (and for a round after they leave). The DC to cast a spell while in it is 60. Dragons Blindsight is 360' while the PC one is 30' IIRC.

Getting an item with Enlarged Deeper Darkness (from a Wish or a Miracle making it a 9th level spell) permanently on it would allow you to take full advantage of your Blindsight and enshroud you completely.

Good Luck
Astlin
 

Remove ads

Top