Dragon Compendium Table of Contents

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

You both raise excellent points, Mike and Erik, but given that the witch class seemed to be one of the most-requested classics, at least here on EN World, I humbly submit it'd be worth taking a run at it next time around.

In any case, the Compendium looks very useful to me and I will be the first in line. (Well, virtual line. The only game store near me just does CCGs, despite having a very D&Dish name.)

Looking forward to future volumes and an Incursion compilation.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

/blink

The classes are nothing alike.

Why?

You want something that focuses on item creation and has spells other classes don't have, it's the Artificer. If you want to make them all witch-y, make a flavor change. If you want more wizardly spells, then cast the infusion that lets you create single-shot spell completion or spell trigger items - or multiclass.

What's so special about the old witch that it can't be done with either the DMG offering or intelligent mucking-about with an existing class's flavor text?

 

[GVDammerung]

I have hundreds of pages of quality material from the entirety of Dragon's publishing life. Said material would fill seven volumes, minimum, of the size of this first one. There is no way that everyone's favorite articles would appear in the first volume. None. It would have been impossible. . . .

I love Ed's devil articles. But I don't love them enough to let them dominate 20% (and probably more) of this book, which is after all aimed at a general audience. For a volume centered on Dragon's excellent planar articles? Sure. And it's our hope that sales of this first volume will allow such a tightly focused compilation in the future.

--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon

Come now. How big was Shackled City? For how much? Too big and too much for a Dragon compendium? Certainly, if you hold out on the goodies. I suspect, however, there would have been little inherent impedement to going bigger, particularly if the reason was the inclusion of the Nine Hells etc.

And who is this "general audience?" You suppose your audience is predominently other than those already familiar with Dragon? I doubt this. For those already familiar with Dragon, then, the inclusion of such focused material would have resonated. For those unfamilar with Dragon, but inquiring before they purchased something with which by definition they would have little or no aquaintance, they would likely hear tell of the "great articles" of the past, most particularly the Nine Hells material which they now will not find.

And this - "And it's our hope that sales of this first volume will allow such a tightly focused compilation in the future." You repeat this like a mantra. First, you are holding better material back and offering it as a possibility contingent upon the sale of lesser material - hostage taking if you will pardon the hyperbole. What is more, if the sales situation is so precarious at Paizo that future volumes are so in doubt - all the more reason you should have lead with your A game.

No. I find your explaination disingenuous at best. IMO, you mislead people and now offer nothing more than fig leaves, transparent sophistry and a proverbial gun to the head of the Nine Hells in order to sell intentionally less than the best product you could have produced.

There is merit in the material in Volume 1, let there be no mistaking that. But Volume 1 is intentionally also not the best you could have produced, do not mistake that either.

The witch I can understand as the product of Wotc's policy (not Mearl's stated reasoning). For the rest, I am disappointed in Paizo.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Why?

You want something that focuses on item creation and has spells other classes don't have, it's the Artificer. If you want to make them all witch-y, make a flavor change. If you want more wizardly spells, then cast the infusion that lets you create single-shot spell completion or spell trigger items - or multiclass.

What's so special about the old witch that it can't be done with either the DMG offering or intelligent mucking-about with an existing class's flavor text?

Are you unfamiliar with the Dragon witch? Because, until this thread, I'd never heard anyone suggest that its core component was magic item creation. Yes, it does this, but to reduce witches to artificers in dresses and pointy hats is to call into question having any classes other than Tank, Melee DPS, Healer and Caster DPS.

Much as there's room for warmages in a game with sorcerers and room for rangers in a game with rogues, there's room for witches and artificers.

 

[JoeGKushner]

You both raise excellent points, Mike and Erik, but given that the witch class seemed to be one of the most-requested classics, at least here on EN World, I humbly submit it'd be worth taking a run at it next time around.

In any case, the Compendium looks very useful to me and I will be the first in line. (Well, virtual line. The only game store near me just does CCGs, despite having a very D&Dish name.)

Looking forward to future volumes and an Incursion compilation.

Man, an Incursion update would be another excellent "Campaign Component" and would be a great counter point to the Sunlit world of the Illithids. I see how the Dragon Compendium II is shaping up already.

So how long will we have to wait to know if there is going to be a sequel? Six months? A year? Anxious minds want to know...

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Man, an Incursion update would be another excellent "Campaign Component" and would be a great counter point to the Sunlit world of the Illithids.

Wow, that really would be good.

I see how the Dragon Compendium II is shaping up already.

I could live with Incursion (and the Sunlit World) being a book on its own, maybe with Fedifensor and other related material.

 

[jokamachi]

Despite the fact that I will be buying this volume, and I urge other Greyhawk fans to do so in hopes we'll see our own volume on Oerth, GV's got a point, and a rather good one at that.
Hostage taking indeed.

I would have liked to see the witch write-up, as well, especially since its most recent publication was in 3rd edition and NOT 3.5

Countless boner classes get rewritten for the complete series, but not this gem?

 

[JoeGKushner]

Wow, that really would be good.


I could live with Incursion (and the Sunlit World) being a book on its own, maybe with Fedifensor and other related material.

Actually, if you make it about "alien" style creatures, the sheen and their mechanical aspect makes them another good prospect for that. Perhaps some sidebars on a war between githyanki and mind flayers and how they each see the sheen to be used in their little wars...

 

[Erik Mona]

Come now. How big was Shackled City? For how much? Too big and too much for a Dragon compendium?

Honestly, yeah. It was probably too big and too much for the Shackled City book. Sales on the product are decent, but I suspect that the Dragon Compendium will sell better because it is aimed at both DMs and players and because it has a more affordable price point. Before the release of the Shackled City book, I wouldn't have thought price point would be such a sticky issue, but I do now.

Certainly, if you hold out on the goodies. I suspect, however, there would have been little inherent impedement to going bigger, particularly if the reason was the inclusion of the Nine Hells etc.

It's irrelevant. The book was slated as a 256-pager, solicited as a 256-pager, etc. There's actually a business to this, and the profit margins on a slimmer book are often higher. You may have noticed that Wizards has standardized its hardcover size and price, and there's a reason for it. As I said before, there are hundreds of pages of excellent material. Some of that stuff wasn't going to make the cut for the first volume.

And who is this "general audience?" You suppose your audience is predominently other than those already familiar with Dragon? I doubt this. For those already familiar with Dragon, then, the inclusion of such focused material would have resonated. For those unfamilar with Dragon, but inquiring before they purchased something with which by definition they would have little or no aquaintance, they would likely hear tell of the "great articles" of the past, most particularly the Nine Hells material which they now will not find.

They'll probably get it eventually, just not in this volume. And if they don't know it exists, what difference does it make if they get it in volume 1 or in volume 5? The answer is that it makes no difference.

The "general audience" to which I refer consists not only of people who have been subscribing to the magazine since The Strategic Review, but also to people who aren't interested in purchasing a monthly magazine (for whatever reason) but who might be interested in a compilation of some of the better material from that source. It's also aimed at recent subscribers and readers who complain that the 3.0 and 3.5 stuff published to date is too diffuse, too spread out over their various issues to reference handily.

And this - "And it's our hope that sales of this first volume will allow such a tightly focused compilation in the future." You repeat this like a mantra.

That's because it's true.

First, you are holding better material back and offering it as a possibility contingent upon the sale of lesser material - hostage taking if you will pardon the hyperbole.

I thought "pardoning the hyperbole" went part and parcel with reading your posts at all.

I've already explained why we didn't put the Nine Hells articles in the first volume. If that explanation ain't good enough for you, there's really not a lot I can do to change your mind.

What is more, if the sales situation is so precarious at Paizo that future volumes are so in doubt - all the more reason you should have lead with your A game.

I am confident in the quality of the material that will appear in the first volume just as I am confident that enough high-quality material exists that we can fill several more. However, our current agreement with WotC includes only this first book, and future volumes are predicated upon its sales success.

No. I find your explaination disingenuous at best. IMO, you mislead people and now offer nothing more than fig leaves, transparent sophistry and a proverbial gun to the head of the Nine Hells in order to sell intentionally less than the best product you could have produced.

You lecturing someone about sophistry is probably the most amusing thing I've read all week. Thanks for that, old chum.

For the rest, I am disappointed in Paizo.

And rain, to date, is still wet.

--Erik

 

[Crothian]

This is exactly what I want. I don't get Dragon, so this is all new to me and it covers a wide range of material by the look of it. This is seems to be what I want from the magazine, meaning books of their material that are easier for me to use. I think this will really interest the 2 or 3 gamers like myself that don't get Dragon.