Dragon Disciple: "No," says Sage

[Shard O'Glase]

And that might be a remotely valid point if I was riding everything on some wierd combnation. But the 50 str came from nothing but level advancement, race 1/2 orc, the +6 item we all know the fighter types will get by a mid to high level, and a decent inherent bonus, and then the DD prestige class with the additional emlargement bonuses to str. I showed it could even be further abused with rage and frenzy, and I'm sure other people could come up with more ways to abuse this as well. So my showing a 50 str, was showing the high end of how this prestige class was intended to be used.

And while I may not want a 42 str character in my games, I'd definetly prefer it over a 50 str character.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So, going up a size class gives you a +8 STR, and, at the end of his adventures in species transcendence, the dragon disciple has gone up a size class and gained a +8 STR. And the problem with this is what? That the STR wasn't all gained instantly at the same level he crossed the line from really big Medium humanoid to really not that big Large humanoid?

 

[Crom and His Devils]

And that might be a remotely valid point if I was riding everything on some wierd combnation. But the 50 str came from nothing but level advancement, race 1/2 orc, the +6 item we all know the fighter types will get by a mid to high level, and a decent inherent bonus, and then the DD prestige class with the additional emlargement bonuses to str. I showed it could even be further abused with rage and frenzy, and I'm sure other people could come up with more ways to abuse this as well. So my showing a 50 str, was showing the high end of how this prestige class was intended to be used.

And while I may not want a 42 str character in my games, I'd definetly prefer it over a 50 str character.

Well, if you're going to do this amount of number crunching, go all the way. Draw up a half-orc straight barbarian or fighter of the same level as the dragon disciple, along with the same access to magic items, and then compare numbers. Look at the end-result attack bonuses, number of feats, class abilities, hps, the whole nine yards.

Str bonus to hit and damage by themselves really don't mean all that much in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Well, if you're going to do this amount of number crunching, go all the way. Draw up a half-orc straight barbarian or fighter of the same level as the dragon disciple, along with the same access to magic items, and then compare numbers. Look at the end-result attack bonuses, number of feats, class abilities, hps, the whole nine yards.

Str bonus to hit and damage by themselves really don't mean all that much in the grand scheme of things.

Well barb would have I think 18 more hp, rage for +6 str, rage enough time a day where it isn't an issue anymore, same number of feats, same AB of DD without enlarge +8str, 4 less attack bonus than the one with the extra str, uncanny dodge, dmg reduction of 3-. When he raged he would have +78 more hps,+3 more AB, still do 1-2 points less damage on a hit, have +2 to his will saves, and -2 to his AC. The DD gains darkvision, low light visions, immune to sleep, immune to paralysis, immune to one element type, +4 natural armor, natural attacks, breath weapon once a day, and flight at ground movement rate at ave manuverability, large size so a natural reach, oh and +2 int, and +2 chr.

If the DD went with fighter classes he'd have more feats, but fewer fewer hps equal to the levels of fighter, if barb, he'd gain rage+4 str-+4con,about 3 times a day,and uncanny dodge, a mix of fighter barb would gain mixed benefits. As is its seems balanced to me, maybe a slightly worse fighter than a straight barb, but more special abilities.

The primary benefit of the straight fighter types v the DD would be quicker BAB progression so they would gain extra attacks sooner. That would be slightly balanced by the DD gaining large size, and the only a great fool not taking a decent dex+combat reflexes. But end of the day same AB, same number of attacks, roughly same hp, does a little more damage per hit, a few more special abilities. The straight fighter or barb will be a little better at 6-9th level in other words about the same at 10-14th, and then the DD will look a little better after that.

 

[Psyduck]

Yes, it took me a long time to respond to this post, but never late than never! Anyway, I can see where the sage is coming from this time. At 5th level, the dragon disciple gets enlargement, and it specifically says that they lose AC and AB, but doesn't specifically say gain str or lose dex. Same thing with 10th level; the dragon disciple gets what is listed (+4 str, etc), not what the template says (+8 str, etc)

 

[NilCat]

I have the same ideas as The Wizard, to slap the DD onto a paladin. But as I'm interested in the combat abilities I'd like to replace the spell-progression with something else, and I was thinking something along the following:

Skip spell-progression entirely
Use fighter BAB-progression
Up the HD to at least D8 with increases to D10 and eventually D12 (probably at 4th and 8th level?)

When it comes to requirements, I have no great problems with taking a level in sorceror to qualify, but It does seem rather odd (OK it works out rather nicely with the paladins already high CHA, but still).

I was thinking about changing it to be more of a simple BAB requirement (maybe +6 or +8) and an additional feat or two, but I've no clue as to what these should be - any takers?