Dragon Disciple: "No," says Sage

[CRGreathouse]

Speed of 45 is accurate for the fastest humans. Even Monks and Barbarians do not have that (at least at lower levels for Monks).

Speed of 66 is accurate for large elephants But, elephants have a speed of 40.

According to some quick research, elephants' speed should be 55; the fastest human sprinters should have speed 40 (current world record would put it at 39).

In short, I don't think they're that far off. If you include the Dash (name?) feat from S&S, and allow the sprinters to be at least 3rd-level it all works out.

Calculations:
Elephant running speed 25 mph * 8.8 conversion factor / 4 = 55
Human sprinting speed 22 mph * 8.8 convrsion factor / 5 (Run feat) = 38.72

 

[Oni]

You give the DD the size bonuses to str, and that becomes +16 to str yeah that's a good idea. 1/2 orc sorc 1/barbarian 5/DD10/ frenzied berserker 4 20 str at start,+5 for levels +6 for magic, +3 from a book,+4 rage,+6 frenzie,+16 for DDlevels= 60 oh and without the rage and frenzie he still has a 50 str, yeah that's what I want in my campaigns.

This argument is just silly. Look at your example, the bulk of the str bonuses have absolutely nothing to do with the dragon disciple. Take your example and take away the +8 to str from size increase thats still a str of 52. Now take into account that its really only every other point that counts because its the modifier not the actually str that counts and your all talking a difference of +4, hardly something to write home about. This example does more the veil the situation than illuminate anything. I'll repeat again the bulk of your example has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the dragon disciple.

 

[Caliber]

Not to pick a fight, but I have to point out that increased size does not always mean greater strength.

/ramble mode on
Some of you may remember the old days o' yore when traveling circuses would wander about. One circus I went to had a smallish orangutang (sp?) that basicly sat around in a boxing ring. For $5 you could get in the ring and wrestle with him, and if you managed to throw him out of the ring you would win $100.

The point is even though I saw guys double, if not triple, that monkeys size step into the ring, each and every one was thrown out.
/ramble mode off

So the point of all that? Maybe Dragons and Ogres just have less effective muscle structures than Humans?

Hey, its possible!

 

[KarinsDad]

According to some quick research, elephants' speed should be 55; the fastest human sprinters should have speed 40 (current world record would put it at 39).

In short, I don't think they're that far off. If you include the Dash (name?) feat from S&S, and allow the sprinters to be at least 3rd-level it all works out.

Calculations:
Elephant running speed 25 mph * 8.8 conversion factor / 4 = 55
Human sprinting speed 22 mph * 8.8 convrsion factor / 5 (Run feat) = 38.72

First off, don’t allow feats. Feats are above and beyond abilities, not typical abilities.

Secondly, my Encyclopedia/Atlas here states that Elephants can charge at 30 MPH.

30 MPH / 60 minutes = 2640 feet per minute = 264 feet per round / 4x running rate = Speed 66

Humans can do the 100 yard dash in 10 seconds = 30 feet per second = 180 feet per round / 4x running rate = Speed 45

Granted, Dashing is not the same as Running since you cannot keep it up for more than 5 or so rounds in real life without slowing up considerably, but even 45 seconds for the 400 meter dash is fairly typical for sprinters = 175 feet per round = Speed 44.

Distances further than this drop the speed quickly. 800 meters at 115 seconds (or about 19 rounds) is fairly typical = 137 feet per round = Speed 34

Many runners in the world can beat the 4 minute mile = 15 MPH = Speed 33 or higher over a duration of 40 rounds.

However, this does not take into account equipment either. But, I think an equation of Speed = 20 + Dexterity (round to closest 5 feet) would have been better instead of a flat 30 for humans with the possibly of Speed = 25 + Dexterity if you are totally unencumbered (i.e. not carrying anything) for any duration under a minute (i.e. maybe a Sprint rule). YMMV.

 

[green slime]

KD, while I agree in principle to your ideas, and that it seems nice to give players benefits/hindrances according to their physical stats, this starts getting horribly complicated once you start analyzing it.

Sprinters are also exceptionally strong. This is something that may be hard to accept, but consider:

The performance enhancing drugs taken by athletes who wish to cheat increase strength and the ability of the body to heal itself (and thus allow you to train harder. Thus Running speed is not dictated by the DnD stat Dex alone.

Other factors are Height and body type. An examination of the best athletes at each running event will reveal that, on average, the tallest runners are found in the 400 to 800 m races, that runners have successively slimmer builds the further distances the runner races over.

And suggesting that sprinters do not have the Run feat is somewhat laughable... Would you suggest that swimmers not have Swim skill?

All things told, I'd rather have an abstract 30 feet for all humans (after all, the walking speed of the majority of humans is not that different, and is more dependant on height and conditioning than Manual Dexterity) than a complex system to calculate speed, which in the end is just rounded of to the nearest 5 feet anyway...

 

[The Wizard]

But why does the DD gain enlargement? I thought the whole idea with DD was to eventually become a half-dragon. But when examining the half-dragon template in MM...they don´t become large. They keep their racial size and "only" apply the template.

In that aspect -DD is a worthless class compared to, say druid or shifter or just about anything. The halfdragon template isn´t nowhere near as good as the ability to wildshape into a elemental or dire animal. Polymorph can give you better abilities. A fighter will slap you silly.
You are a fighter but have a lousy HD and a bad BAB.

And why do you have to be a sorcerer to be able to take the class? They could´ve put some other restriction on it instead. If you like the idea of becoming a half-dragon....you must take a level as sorcerer.

I like the class a lot but they seem to be lacking in a lot of areas. Actually I´m planning to make a DD right now since my wizard was killed last week. Does anyone have some useful hints? I´m planning to make him a sorcerer 1/fighter 4/DD 6.

 

[KarinsDad]

And suggesting that sprinters do not have the Run feat is somewhat laughable... Would you suggest that swimmers not have Swim skill?

What is laughable is that the Run feat exists at all (regardless of the fact that virtually nobody takes it). The reason it exists at all is that all humans in the game (shy of a special class) have the same movement.

Consider a character with a 14 Strength and 14 Constitution. Fairly typical maybe for a runner. Not super strong and not the best endurance, but not wimpy either.

Said character with the Run feat can carry 58 pounds of gear and run at a rate of 150.

So, this character can do this for 14 consecutive rounds or 84 seconds. And, he can move 150 feet * 14 rounds or 2100 feet. 2100 feet = 640 meters.

Gee, with 58 pounds of gear, this guy can run faster than 800 meter runners in the real world. Why? Because you allowed a feat into the equation.


The problem with allowing feats is that feats are an anomaly. Some feats allow you to do super human things. Others, give a bonus to a skill. They are all over the place, but they are not typical abilities.

Personally I think feats should not be considered when you are analyzing this type of thing. I also do not consider Barbarian movement or Monk movement. Monks can run faster than dogs in the game, but in the real world, no human can run faster than most dogs. So, I ignore the special abilities and feats.

 

[green slime]

Consider a character with a 14 Strength and 14 Constitution.

><snip

Said character with the Run feat can carry 58 pounds of gear and run at a rate of 150.

><snip

Gee, with 58 pounds of gear, this guy can run faster than 800 meter runners in the real world.

Ummm... I've run 600m in approx 81 secs (a LONG time ago), I believe the best 800m runners would pass 640m in under 85 seconds (I was nowhere near their capacity). Of course, nobody does this wearing a Chain shirt and carrying assorted goods.

But this is what you get when you simplify things. Heroic things are bound to happen. It doesn't break the game, in fact it makes it kind of fun. The alternative would be to have a horribly complex mish mash of Dex/Str/Con based checks while running in order to give the correct feel for "Reality" in what is a Fantasy game.

What you could do is grant the Run feat to everybody who is unburdened by any armour or gear. Thus giving the fleeing peasant a "fighting" chance. This would bring the feat back into the realm of the superhuman, as it allows the lightly encumbered to chase down the fleeing peasant.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

This argument is just silly. Look at your example, the bulk of the str bonuses have absolutely nothing to do with the dragon disciple. Take your example and take away the +8 to str from size increase thats still a str of 52. Now take into account that its really only every other point that counts because its the modifier not the actually str that counts and your all talking a difference of +4, hardly something to write home about. This example does more the veil the situation than illuminate anything. I'll repeat again the bulk of your example has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the dragon disciple.

The only silly arguments about a class are the ones who look at the bonuses in a box without worrying about how they can be abused. You have to look at what an additional +8 to str means in all situations and what that +8 to str can become, and besides +4 to hit and +4-6 to damage on every swing isn't a small bonus, it is a massive bonus. Also that +8 to str, added into a large size makes this guys carrying capacity rather absurd.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I think the point was that the example doesn't really become much less abusive if you remove the enlargement bonusses from the dragon disciple class. A 42 strength is going to give a character a decent chance to hit at +16 power attack which would allow 2d8+40 points of damage before any magical bonusses are figured in. A 50 strength does the same but the damage is 2d8+50 (although at a higher level since that's using power attack at +20). OK, so you don't want the 50 strength in your game. Do you really want the 42 strength character?

To put another spin on it, imagine an argument that the shield spell is broken (it may or may not be overpowered but that's not the point). To prove this, Superduper AC man with his AC of 160 is put forward. Does that prove shield is broken? No. Only 7 of the 160 points come from the shield spell. Actually it just proves that Superduper AC man is a ridiculous character. AC 153 isn't really any less abusive than AC 160.

When it comes down to it, clever players can put abusive combinations together with almost any set of classes. They best way to see whether something is broken or not is to analyze how it is intended to be used and how it will usually be used.

The only silly arguments about a class are the ones who look at the bonuses in a box without worrying about how they can be abused. You have to look at what an additional +8 to str means in all situations and what that +8 to str can become, and besides +4 to hit and +4-6 to damage on every swing isn't a small bonus, it is a massive bonus. Also that +8 to str, added into a large size makes this guys carrying capacity rather absurd.