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Dragon Disciple: "No," says Sage
- Thread starter Gumby
- Start date
Wolf72
Explorer
not confused?
I thought that (the sage's reply) is what he said last time.
you get the bonuses listed in T&B (which I think is the same as those from the template)
the only thing you get from the size increase is: new size category, and possibly greater reach. No inc in str, or nat armor ... but your hide and related skills are affected.
I thought that (the sage's reply) is what he said last time.
you get the bonuses listed in T&B (which I think is the same as those from the template)
the only thing you get from the size increase is: new size category, and possibly greater reach. No inc in str, or nat armor ... but your hide and related skills are affected.
kreynolds
First Post
bret said:
LOL
Actually, I wasn't attacking him. I just had a feeling that his players might be the problem. Are you sure you're not just pissed at me because of a previous thread? If so, which one? If several, name one and I'll explain my behavior towards you, and if my behavior wasn't warranted, I'll apologize.
But in the case of this post, I was actually defending Magus, as it seems that he runs his games well. He knows the importance of consistency. He doesn't just lay down and accept a sage ruling if it doesn't make sense to him. He seems like a good DM. I just think his players might be the problem.
I fail to see the logic of disallowing all of the stat modifications listed for enlargement in the Monster Manual, but then giving 10 ft reach -- the one "benefit" of enlargement that IS NOT clearly stated in the rules.
These odd rulings from the sage are what led me to drop "enlargement" from the Dragon Disciple class IMC altogether (and my DD player is much happier). Using the sage's ruling, enlargement is much more of a hindrance than a benefit....
These odd rulings from the sage are what led me to drop "enlargement" from the Dragon Disciple class IMC altogether (and my DD player is much happier). Using the sage's ruling, enlargement is much more of a hindrance than a benefit....
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This is a little off-topic but it's the place to ask: Why be a Dragon Disciple? You get one bonus spell/level (which I guess is taken at your highest possible spellcaster level), but you don't otherwise advance in spellcasting ability. Substandard BAB, substandard HP, and the other bennies just don't seem overly strong.
What am I missing? I'm sure I'm missing something here.
EDITED EDIT: Never mind, found what I was looking for (the new Bladesinger). Still wondering about the D. Disciple though.
What am I missing? I'm sure I'm missing something here.
EDITED EDIT: Never mind, found what I was looking for (the new Bladesinger). Still wondering about the D. Disciple though.
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Here is my take on it.
The Sage is smoking something again.
Yes, he is not here to defend himself, but that's ok. I'm sure some people will defend him anyway. His rulings for the last few years have been all over the target. It's like watching a blind archer shoot.
Ok, now you are a large creature.
How much do you weigh?
Why is your Speed still 30? Didn't your stride increase?
How about your armor? You can no longer wear your old stuff. Maybe I can interest you in this large Full Plate that weighs 100 pounds. Oh. 100 pounds along with all of your other new larger equipment puts you beyond your carrying capacity?
Too bad!
If they would have just came up with some good enlargement rules for Enlarge, Polymorph, Righteous Might, etc., we would not be having this discussion.
Instead, the Sage does the "balance belly flop" where he flip flops between his answers based on his game balance decision of the day. Yawn.
Regardless of what the Sage says, here is the most reasonable answer according to the rules:
MM page 12
"Creatures may become larger as they gain Hit Dice. A size increase affects the creature's ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage ratings as indicated on the following tables."
Last I heard, most PCs and most Dragon Disciples are creatures.
MM page 79
"Dwarf: Hit Dice 1d8+1"
So, Dwarves and Halfings and Elves have hit dice. Presumably, Humans do as well. We just happen to call it levels.
Tome and Blood page 56
"At 5th level, the dragon disciple's size increases one step"
Hence, this creature gains the ability changes listed in the MM for increasing in size.
As for this "you get what is listed in the PrC" garbage, sigh. I would not expect them to list ALL of the advantages and disadvantages of growing in the Dragon Disciple PrC just like I would not expect them to list ALL of the advantages and disadvantages of the claw and bite attacks that they get at second level. This ruling is just plain bad.
They grow claws. They grow teeth. They grow larger. They even grow scales. They are a creature. End of story. They gain the size advantages and disadvantages of growing just like they gain the claw advantages and disadvantages, just like any other creature. You ever walk into an armory and ask for an off the shelf pair of gauntlets when you have claws?
Come on Sage! A little common sense in your rulings here. Sigh.
And btw, I think that they should have added Speed increases for larger creatures. Most real world creatures gain a faster movement rate when they grow up. They are not limited to what they were capable of when they were younger. Granted, I do not think it should be double move due to the increased body mass, but the stride increase should make it maybe 50% more for each doubling of size. YMMV on this.
The Sage is smoking something again.
Yes, he is not here to defend himself, but that's ok. I'm sure some people will defend him anyway. His rulings for the last few years have been all over the target. It's like watching a blind archer shoot.
Ok, now you are a large creature.
How much do you weigh?
Why is your Speed still 30? Didn't your stride increase?
How about your armor? You can no longer wear your old stuff. Maybe I can interest you in this large Full Plate that weighs 100 pounds. Oh. 100 pounds along with all of your other new larger equipment puts you beyond your carrying capacity?
Too bad!
If they would have just came up with some good enlargement rules for Enlarge, Polymorph, Righteous Might, etc., we would not be having this discussion.
Instead, the Sage does the "balance belly flop" where he flip flops between his answers based on his game balance decision of the day. Yawn.
Regardless of what the Sage says, here is the most reasonable answer according to the rules:
MM page 12
"Creatures may become larger as they gain Hit Dice. A size increase affects the creature's ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage ratings as indicated on the following tables."
Last I heard, most PCs and most Dragon Disciples are creatures.
MM page 79
"Dwarf: Hit Dice 1d8+1"
So, Dwarves and Halfings and Elves have hit dice. Presumably, Humans do as well. We just happen to call it levels.
Tome and Blood page 56
"At 5th level, the dragon disciple's size increases one step"
Hence, this creature gains the ability changes listed in the MM for increasing in size.
As for this "you get what is listed in the PrC" garbage, sigh. I would not expect them to list ALL of the advantages and disadvantages of growing in the Dragon Disciple PrC just like I would not expect them to list ALL of the advantages and disadvantages of the claw and bite attacks that they get at second level. This ruling is just plain bad.
They grow claws. They grow teeth. They grow larger. They even grow scales. They are a creature. End of story. They gain the size advantages and disadvantages of growing just like they gain the claw advantages and disadvantages, just like any other creature. You ever walk into an armory and ask for an off the shelf pair of gauntlets when you have claws?
Come on Sage! A little common sense in your rulings here. Sigh.
And btw, I think that they should have added Speed increases for larger creatures. Most real world creatures gain a faster movement rate when they grow up. They are not limited to what they were capable of when they were younger. Granted, I do not think it should be double move due to the increased body mass, but the stride increase should make it maybe 50% more for each doubling of size. YMMV on this.
kreynolds said:
Insinuating that the players were a bunch of whining babies seems like an attack to me.
In any case, my comment was from noticing a pattern of replies to several topics. One example would be your response about Melf's Acid Arrow. There have been a few others.
Of course, immediately after I posted it I then saw a post where you were helpful. Seems you aren't always nasty, just I only remembered the nasty ones.
