Dragon & Dungeon Magazines - the numbers tell the story

[Nellisir]

Nellisir - the problem is, you are assuming that your experience reflects the majority of readers. It very well might, but, you have absolutely nothing, other than gut feeling, that backs that up. It could also be very well that you are in a small minority of Dragon or Dungeon buyers that aren't users. We simply don't know.

Actually, I was going on a comment or statement from Erik Mona a few years ago about the large number of Dungeon "readers". I don't remember it mentioning numbers, but I did get the impression that readers outnumbered users. Surprised me a bit. I'm not going to look it up, since I don't remember where it was at all. Maybe Erik will comment again.

And, yeah, Dragon & Dungeon conducted market research, so I think someone does know.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

The following figures are the average number of copies sold (Total Paid and/or Requested Circulation) for each year of Dungeon magazine, ending at the date given. Issue numbers from which this data came are written in parentheses.

Paid Distribution
Oct 2000 (#84) - 23,672
Oct 2001 (#90) - 24,663
Sep 2002 (#96) - 36,572
Dec 2003 (#107) - 48,238
Oct 2004 (#118) - 37,141
??? 2005 (#130) - 32,195
Oct 2006 (#142) - 31,408

What made 2003 such a good year? 3.5e? Shackled City? Something else?

It should be noted that in 2000 and 2001, Dungeon produced a lot of copies that were marked as "not distributed" - in 2000, 41,145 copies were made, of which 17,372 were "Copies Not Distributed". Whatever that means!

Cheers!

I'm sorry, but what is the source for these numbers? (If I run my class on RPGs, this might be good info.)

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I think trouble will arise from "readers" outnumbering users. I am certainly a reader; despite having over 200 issues of Dragon, I've "used" perhaps 10 of them. I have fewer Dungeons (50-75), but have used no more than 2 or 3 adventures. Total. Since, ever. It's just not as fun for me to read online. I used to buy Dragon, throw it in my truck, and drag it out to read in little bits for a week or two. I'm not going to bother doing that with a pdf Dragon; I'll occasionally skim an article that looks interesting, but I won't read it cover to cover and I won't read it at all if I don't subscribe to DI (which is likely).

So, DI is going to lose (IMO) most readers and a fair chunk of users. On the upside, printing costs go to near zero and there's probably a tighter revenue path from subscribers to WotC's coffers.

According to a study done in the early 80s, I believe, the average Dragon magazine at the time was read by 4.5 people. (This is given in Fine's 1983 book, Shared Fantasy. An appropriate title in this case.)

 

[WayneLigon]

I'm sorry, but what is the source for these numbers? (If I run my class on RPGs, this might be good info.)

A "Statement Of Ownership, Management and Circulation" is required for all magazines that are mailed second-class maill; it usually appears in Nov, Dec, or Jan. That's where I got my '85 figure and most likely the only record anyone will have on what the distribution was.

 

[Balgus]

Oct 2000 (#84) - 23,672
Oct 2001 (#90) - 24,663
Sep 2002 (#96) - 36,572
Dec 2003 (#107) - 48,238 --> (oct)40,100
Oct 2004 (#118) - 37,141
??? 2005 (#130) - 32,195
Oct 2006 (#142) - 31,408

Numbers as stated are a bit skewed... In orer to be accurate, you should state numbers for teh same month every year.

If you prorate the numbers to Dec ( since it is only for 9 /10 months) the numbers arent as skewed.

2002 - 48,400
2003 - 48,200
2004 - 44,000
2005 - ?
2006 - 37,800

which slows a slight dip in numbers from 2003 -> 2006, but nowhere near as prominent as originally stated.

I chalk it up to the internet. There is plenty of content on the net, and for the casual gamer, there is no reason to pay $5 for a magazine when you can get comparable articles and content from Wizards website, ask questions here and get exactly what you need without all the fluff that accompany it...

EX - once a magazine comes out (or even before) someone always posts a content list and review. If someoen wants a specific feat or skill or racial stats, they ask and someone posts it... what's the use of buying the magazine now?

For books and source material - I can understand buying just to have for reference. but things covered in magazines dont really scream "BUY ME Cause you need me"

 

[James Jacobs]

Actually, I was going on a comment or statement from Erik Mona a few years ago about the large number of Dungeon "readers". I don't remember it mentioning numbers, but I did get the impression that readers outnumbered users. Surprised me a bit. I'm not going to look it up, since I don't remember where it was at all. Maybe Erik will comment again.

And, yeah, Dragon & Dungeon conducted market research, so I think someone does know.

When we use the term "reader," that basically just refers to "Someone who buys Dungeon." Whether they actually run any adventures in the game or just read it, we have no real way to know apart from a few surveys we ran.

That said... I do think that there's a LOT of folks out there who read Dungeon just to read it. Reading adventures is really fun, actually, even if you never run the adventure. And honestly, adventure readers are just as important a customer as those who buy adventures only to run them.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Numbers as stated are a bit skewed... In orer to be accurate, you should state numbers for teh same month every year.

If you prorate the numbers to Dec ( since it is only for 9 /10 months) the numbers arent as skewed.

They're average monthly, not "year to date" total.

 

[GVDammerung]

When we use the term "reader," that basically just refers to "Someone who buys Dungeon." Whether they actually run any adventures in the game or just read it, we have no real way to know apart from a few surveys we ran.

That said... I do think that there's a LOT of folks out there who read Dungeon just to read it. Reading adventures is really fun, actually, even if you never run the adventure. And honestly, adventure readers are just as important a customer as those who buy adventures only to run them.

While I might borrow this bit or that, I almost never run published adventures from a plotting or encounter to encounter standpoint. Thus, for years, I avoided Dungeon. When Greyhawk (so sue me ) became a frequent setting featured in Dungeon, I relented. First, buying the odd issue and then collecting them all - just to read. I still don't run published adventures but I discovered just the point made in the above quote - reading adventures is fun in and of itself. Dungeon was a great source of such quick reads and inexpensive for being that. From a company's standpoint, enjoyment is enjoyment and a sale is a sale, I'd think.

 

[Erik Mona]

Sometimes magazines quote something called "pass along" readership, which is where the number from Shared Fantasy probably came about. I highly doubt I ever quoted pass along readership seriously, as I think it's pretty fraudulent and just a guess. Basically it's a way to impress advertisers.

We only sell 30,000 copies of the magazine, but if you count all of the people at the game table who look at it once, that's 120,000 readers!

Woot.

--Erik

 

[Nellisir]

When we use the term "reader," that basically just refers to "Someone who buys Dungeon." Whether they actually run any adventures in the game or just read it, we have no real way to know apart from a few surveys we ran.

Well, call them fargenboodles if you don't want to call them readers. In the context of the statement, as I recall it, there was difference between people who regularly bought the magazine and just read it (like me), and those who bought it with the intent of using something out of it, or did use something out of it. And it was related to some surveys.

But as I said, it's been awhile. He was probably really discussing his laundry or something.