Dragon fighting tactics?

[myradale]

Alright, I don't know if this should go here or elsewhere...

I'm going to be running my very first dragon encounter since I started playing almost 20 years ago. They are a bit different than other encounters and I could use some help.

The dragon in question is a CR 14 Adult Black, and the players are a rogue 12, paladin 11, bard3/fighter8 and a cleric2/wiz3/psion3/cerebromancer 6

What good tactics could they use to defeat it, and what tactics should the dragon employ?

I'm trying to get the group to put more effort into tactics and planning, and hence I'm trying to reward them accordingly for good tactical decisions.
Any suggestions?

 

[Jack Simth]

Assuming they know about the dragon, and are attacking the dragon on the party's terms.....

A good chunk of it will depend on how you plan on having them encounter the dragon:

Are they going to catch it out of it's den hunting prey? Party should focus on ranged attacks, hiding (especially invisibility), being spread out (don't all want to get caught in that breath weapon), as well as energy resistance to the breath weapon (or something to hold off other effects, if the breath weapon in question doesn't deal damage), and don't forget some kind of defense against the Dragon's Frightful Presence. Caught so, the dragon should either flee to a defensible location, pick a threat and concentrate on it until it's dead, put up some kind of defense against ranged attacks via the dragon's Sorceror capabilities, or force the party into tighter quarters for better use of the breath weapon (note that most of these aren't mutually exclusive).

Are they going to catch it in it's den (or other tight quarters)? Party should focus really, really hard on defense (& flanking, for melee characters) - they will ALL be caught in area effects, or the dragon will full attack a party member to pick them off one by one. Dragon should focus on either a single character (to pick off one by one), or hit everyone with area effects.

Of course, I could just be missing something totally obvious....

 

[griff_goodbeard]

The first thing that comes to mind, is terrain. If it's a black dragon, they'll most likely be in a swamp, which could hamper their movment and provide for hit and run tactics for the dragon. Remember dragons are smart, play them that way. If after a few rounds the dragon feels it's outmatched, you can always have it flee, only to come back and harrass the pc later. If you get into melee combat, you might be temted to spread it's attacks over the whole party. Consentrate your attacks on one person. And don't forget dragons are powerfull, and arrogent(sp), don't be afrain to play him that way. It will make for a memorable encounter.

 

[kigmatzomat]

First, I'd suggest you go here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=136981

This was being discussed just a few days ago.

Black dragons are a bit different but have some exxxcellent tactics available to them. They breathe water, which is an advantage they should never ignore. Water provides concealment and cover. A black only a few inches below the water line is dang hard to see but his blindsense should still be active. A black a few feet below may have 100% concealment and will likely have 9/10th cover.

My standard dragon feat suggestions stand: hover, wingover, fly-by and snatch. There's two left to choose for individual style. (Adult =20HD, 1 feat + 1/4HD = 6)

Hover is a giant blinding effect that only the dragon will be able to "see" through and increases their combat maneuverability. Wingover let's them emulate a higher maneuverability as well. Fly-by is the aerial spring attack and snatch, well, that's just mean.

For a black dragon I'd easily see round 1) Hover & breath, round 2) snatch & dive, round 3-4) drown/maul your snatched prey, round 5) fly-by the party, snatching another person, wingover to dive back into the water. The dragon may even put his darkness effect below the water to provide additional concealment.

An adult black dragon's magic is pretty limited (caster 3, knows 5x 0th and 3x 1sts) but can still be handy. Defensive spells like shield & mage armor are always useful. Manipulative spells like Change self (Only green dragons around here!) , enlarge or reduce are handy.

The dragon's SR of 18 will actually be a challenge to your party (max caster level = 9)

 

[Bryon_Soulweaver]

Depending on if its a random encounter or not depends on if this'll help.


The dragon lives in a swamp right? The trees: use them; also, you might want to think about its blindsense and keen senses, if at night time than this would be even better.

Now, a black dragon would have several necro/buffing spells that would help, even for a few spells. Fear wouldnt work against the paladin so it fearful presense is almost a waste, the paladins allies get a bonus against fear saves. The heavily multiclassed person might be the first or last person you would want to go after, the rogue or fighter would be second. I dont have the MM with me so this is based on memory, which is working somewhat with being awake for nearly 30 hours.

Hmm.... have the dragon under the water with trees growing nearby, target a player and use the breath weapon then fly off. If the players give chase, good, dont split them up. make them think that the dragon is trying to split them up, but really your trying to ralley them up. If you havent got the spell list done already, get charm person and charm the rogue.

Now the tree's, tear those suckers up and swing them around, I think it would hurt to have one of those being thrown at you, even a small one that weighs around 200 pounds or so. You could also use them to like a falling tower, a few falling on them and your good, breath weapon here we come!



Hope this helps, this came from memory so it might work or it might not.:\



Dangit kigmat, you already posted while I was typing!!

 

[MichaelH]

My standard dragon feat suggestions stand: hover, wingover, fly-by and snatch. There's two left to choose for individual style. (Adult =20HD, 1 feat + 1/4HD = 6)

Adult black dragons actually have 19 HD, and they get 1 feat at 1 HD and 1 feat for every 3 HD like every other creature. So an adult black has 7 feats.

Hover is a giant blinding effect that only the dragon will be able to "see" through and increases their combat maneuverability. Wingover let's them emulate a higher maneuverability as well. Fly-by is the aerial spring attack and snatch, well, that's just mean.

I also agree that Hover, Fly-by Attack, and Wingover are great feats for the dragon. The adult black, however, is only Large, so it could only use Snatch on Tiny or smaller creatures. Probably not worth taking until it is Huge or larger. Also, Fly-by Attack is like Spring Attack except that it does not disallow an attack of opportunity due to the movement. This means the dragon has to stay out of the reach of its target while biting in order to avoid the AoO while flying by. For the Large adult black, any target with 10 foot reach will get the AoO.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Are you talking about CR 11 Adult Black or CR 14 Mature Adult?

If you play the mature adult dragon properly, it will have the effect of a CoC monster (we all know - or not - that notable remark in CoC d20 concerning monsters. It's along the lines of: "Monsters in Call of Cthulhu aren't there to create challenges. Monsters are there to kill. If the party fights a monster, some player(s) will die).

Dragons are powerful for their CR, and the characters are of lower level (the jack-of-all-trades has enough levels, but lacks the caster level and spell levels of single-classed casters or manifesters).

It really depens on how powerful they are for their level. If they go through monsters of their CR without breaking a sweat, it's OK, but if they have problems with that, they will be in deep muck (and not just because they will be in the swamp)

You can either play the dragon dumb, just like an animal, but that doesn't do the dragon justice. Or, you can play the dragon like smart and powerful monster that it is, and give the players a hell of a fight.

I'd advice on using the CR 11 adult dragon, and use all the tactics a dragon would use - use terrain to its advantage, use minions to tire the party out, and when the dragon decides to enter the fray, he will strike from an ambush (that thing will have max ranks in hide and move silently, and it can breathe water), hitting spell-casters and archers first. It will then either attack from the air, using the fact that it can fly to its advanate, or try to grapple enemies and drown them. It will concentrate on one enemy at a time. It will be out to kill.

At least, that's how I play dragons. I also make them purely optional. Players can choose to fight the dragon, but they know that dragons are not messing around. If you plan to force them into this fight, you might be more lenient, or use a weaker specimen, at least at first, to gauge out their brawn and brains. Otherwise, this might be a real player killer.

 

[Storyteller01]

If you can play it right (and the party is relatively morale) you can play the hostage card. Play the snatch, then hold the character underwater while 'discussing terms'.

ANother I've heard is have the locals in the swamp working with the dragon. Lizard folk make good patrols, and kobolds are great with traps.

 

[MichaelH]

Like others, make sure the dragon takes advantage of the water. It can freely cast its spells and use its breath weapon underwater. It's corrupt water special ability has a range of 180 feet. Make sure you attempt to ruin all the party's potions when they are close enough (Will save DC 20). Don't forget the dragon's frightful presence. It also has a range of 180 feet and those who fail a DC 20 Will save suffer -2 on all their attacks, saving throws, skill and ability checks. To avoid sneak attacks, it can use darkness to surround itself. Darkness provides a 20% miss chance so sneak attacks will not work within it. Make sure the dragon has the Blind-fight feat to give it an edge with this tactic.

As for feats, I suggest Blind-fight, Cleave, Fly-by Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, and Wingover. If you don't like the Power Attack/Cleave combination, take Weapon Focus (bite) and Weapon Focus (claw). Don't forget to add the bonuses to the stats (I did that once).

Take whatever 0-level spells you would like. For 1st level spells, I like Protection from Good for the +2 to AC, saving throws, and protection from summoned monsters, Ray of Enfeeblement to enrage those warrior types and make them less effective with those deadly melee attacks, and Shield for the +4 shield bonus to AC (stacks with the PfG spell above) and the blocking of magic missile spells (the reason I like this spell over mage armor).

Don't be afraid to let the dragon move away, preferably under cover of the water, and then come back when it can use its breath again. Dragons usually will not stand toe to toe with a party of adventurers too long if they want to live. Also, use strafing tactics with Fly-by Attack unless you are getting too many attacks of opportunity. Kill the spellcasters first. Good luck.

 

[azhrei_fje]

The dragon lives in a swamp right? The trees: use them; also, you might want to think about its blindsense and keen senses, if at night time than this would be even better.

Put the players at the edge of a steep underwater drop off that they can't see because of the murky water. The dragon waits about 90 feet away. When the PCs are near the drop off, he leaps into the air and uses his breath weapon. Take careful note of where the PCs run so that you can determine if they go over the drop off and sink in the water! Let them make a Reflex save to use a move equivalent and get back to the shallows (but they will have used a move action already, so they won't have a standard action that round!). Try to play this coyly -- the DMG says that the DM is within his rights to rule that all actions are taking place simultaneously (see the area around pg 24, IIRC). That means that when one PC steps off the ledge, the others are moving at the same time so play it that way. Let the first PC tell you where he wants to move to and have them describe their action, but tell them after they move (!) that they'll need to wait to take their action. They won't understand it, but be firm. After all PCs have stated their move, then tell them what happens. If they complain, read the passage from the DMG where Tordek moves and triggers a trap that catches the rest of the PCs. (They won't like it, but they know that their actions are all taking place within the same 6-second round.)

Fear wouldnt work against the paladin so it fearful presense is almost a waste, the paladins allies get a bonus against fear saves. The heavily multiclassed person might be the first or last person you would want to go after, the rogue or fighter would be second.

The paladin's Aura of Courage is only while the other characters are within range of the paladin (10 feet, right?). When the other PCs move away, make them roll the save again. This is perfectly reasonable: the RAW say that any time the situation changes in a way that is significant to the saving throw, let the player roll the save again. The rule should apply to adverse conditions as well as beneficial ones.

If you havent got the spell list done already, get charm person and charm the rogue.

I like the idea of charm'ing the rogue! As mentioned by another poster, I would also use shield and mage armor, but I would be inclined to use items for those: wand of shield and/or wand of mage armor, probably with each one holding only a dozen or so charges. And don't forget that those would be treated as part of the dragon's treasure. Then give the dragon the ray of enfeeblement spell. Be sure to put at least a single scroll of identify into the hoard -- what dragon with spellcasting ability would NOT have that ability?

Now the tree's, tear those suckers up and swing them around, I think it would hurt to have one of those being thrown at you, even a small one that weighs around 200 pounds or so. You could also use them to like a falling tower, a few falling on them and your good, breath weapon here we come!

Bravo! Very good! I hadn't thought of trapping the PCs under a tree!

If you are using the Draconomicon, I would recommend the Recover Breath feat, since it lets the dragon get a reuse of its breath weapon one round sooner than normal (normally it's 1d4+1 rounds later, with this feat it's just 1d4 rounds). Any players that know that the dragon's breath weapon is supposed to be 1d4+1 will be surprised if the dragon gets a chance to breath on two consecutive rounds!!

Another feat from that book that can be useful is Large and In Charge, since any creature approaching within the threat range of the dragon might find itself pushed back by the AoO that the dragon gets. Give the dragon Combat Reflexes and it'll be tough for the fighter to get in close and use his Strength or the rogue to get close for the sneak attack. (Large and In Charge says that if the dragon's AoO does damage, the opponent gets pushed back into the square it was in right before it provoked the AoO, or something like that. :\)