D&D 5E Dragon Heist vs DotMM?
- Thread starter Zardnaar
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Storm King's Thunder was garbage. The group didn't trust the cloud giant at the beginning (and for good reason). Ergo, they didn't have a connection to the plot - since he was the "magical plot explaining dude." I ended up scrapping almost everything and writing my own material, which was fine because SKT's assumed DMs were going to scrap over 75% of the adventure anyway. (You focus only on one type of giant, while the other three dungeons and related encounter sites are never explored.)
It was a hot mess, as was Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Princes of the Apocalypse and Out of the Abyss were fixable, but had sloppy moments. Tomb of Annihilation was befuddling because the central conceit punished players for exploring the jungle setting and experiencing the best part of the adventure - so you kind of need to trash the Death Curse storyline.
Dungeon of the Mad Mage has some decent dungeon crawl to it, but it's hardly the best dungeon crawl for 5e.
It was a hot mess, as was Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Princes of the Apocalypse and Out of the Abyss were fixable, but had sloppy moments. Tomb of Annihilation was befuddling because the central conceit punished players for exploring the jungle setting and experiencing the best part of the adventure - so you kind of need to trash the Death Curse storyline.
Dungeon of the Mad Mage has some decent dungeon crawl to it, but it's hardly the best dungeon crawl for 5e.
I wouldn't recommend either, though I think its certainly possible to have fun with either.
Dragon Heist gets in it's own way a bit too much. It has a built in railroad and there is one chapter that is a neat idea (many different set pieces that depending on the villain appear in different orders with different effects) on paper, but a headache to run for the DM, and a bit too arbitrary-railroad-you-can't-win-until-book-says-you-do for the players. You can have fun with it but I advise ignoring/adding material liberally. Also: THEIR IS NO HEIST. You just walk around until you find a dungeon. Like everyone other adventure. I DMed it and wandered away from the text often and think my players had more fun because of it, I'm playing it as a player with a DM that has stuck closer to the book and its been ok at best.
Dungeon of the mad Mage: Players got tired of the dungeon crawl and DM didn't really hook us into the plot, so it ended on level 3. This was a group and DM dependent result, but a very easily obtained one, I suspect.
Dragon Heist gets in it's own way a bit too much. It has a built in railroad and there is one chapter that is a neat idea (many different set pieces that depending on the villain appear in different orders with different effects) on paper, but a headache to run for the DM, and a bit too arbitrary-railroad-you-can't-win-until-book-says-you-do for the players. You can have fun with it but I advise ignoring/adding material liberally. Also: THEIR IS NO HEIST. You just walk around until you find a dungeon. Like everyone other adventure. I DMed it and wandered away from the text often and think my players had more fun because of it, I'm playing it as a player with a DM that has stuck closer to the book and its been ok at best.
Dungeon of the mad Mage: Players got tired of the dungeon crawl and DM didn't really hook us into the plot, so it ended on level 3. This was a group and DM dependent result, but a very easily obtained one, I suspect.
LordEntrails
Hero
I will also add support for the Alexandrian Remix of Dragon Heist linked earlier. I actually like it enough that I subscribed to his Patreon so I could get additional Remix info.
What that means is I like DH. I think it's horribly written and is a poor attempt (with the "seasons") to try and make it re-playable. But, if you are willing to use the adventure as a toolkit and revamp it with the Remix or your own then it can be quite enjoyable and "good".
DoMM... well, I'm not sure yet. I'm a 'classic' Undermountain fan (hence my Ultimate Undermountain project) and this one is interesting. It's no where near the scale of the original (as expected). It has some good 'things' and sets etc. But it also has some poor design decisions, such as the whole linear level gating. I'm looking at it as a framework for UM and nothing more. I certainly won't be running it as presented.
What that means is I like DH. I think it's horribly written and is a poor attempt (with the "seasons") to try and make it re-playable. But, if you are willing to use the adventure as a toolkit and revamp it with the Remix or your own then it can be quite enjoyable and "good".
DoMM... well, I'm not sure yet. I'm a 'classic' Undermountain fan (hence my Ultimate Undermountain project) and this one is interesting. It's no where near the scale of the original (as expected). It has some good 'things' and sets etc. But it also has some poor design decisions, such as the whole linear level gating. I'm looking at it as a framework for UM and nothing more. I certainly won't be running it as presented.
Huh? You mean with the various season encounters as part of the railroad? If I remember correctly, it's only 2 of the minor encounters that are not used in any given season. But again, as written its a poor adventure, as Remixed, it's quite good.
TheSword
Legend
To be clear, WDH needs work but it is one of the best (there aren’t many) city adventures I’ve seen.
The plot definitely isn’t as railroady as it first appears, partly because the freedom of the city means there are lots of ways to solve problems. There are some great NPCs, memorable locations, interesting dungeons and good opportunities for intrigue, double dealing, infiltrating and factions.
It’s not fair to describe the book as an adventure path as it only goes from levels 1-5 so is really a long adventure and campaign setting. It does provide four solid adventure locations in chapter 5 onwards that can be used at multiple levels throughout the campaign if it continues into Undermountain.
Each with a compelling faction.
Chapter 2 is the loosest which is more just a chance to complete faction quests and developers a business/property and is best invested time wise and energy wise. Chapter 1 is a lot of fun, chapter 3 has a lot of flexibility.
This is not for novice DMs, but has the opportunity to be very rich experience. If however a person hates the very thought of Waterdeep then no, I wouldn’t expect them to enjoy this. We knew there would be naysayers before the product was even released though.
The plot definitely isn’t as railroady as it first appears, partly because the freedom of the city means there are lots of ways to solve problems. There are some great NPCs, memorable locations, interesting dungeons and good opportunities for intrigue, double dealing, infiltrating and factions.
It’s not fair to describe the book as an adventure path as it only goes from levels 1-5 so is really a long adventure and campaign setting. It does provide four solid adventure locations in chapter 5 onwards that can be used at multiple levels throughout the campaign if it continues into Undermountain.
Each with a compelling faction.
Chapter 2 is the loosest which is more just a chance to complete faction quests and developers a business/property and is best invested time wise and energy wise. Chapter 1 is a lot of fun, chapter 3 has a lot of flexibility.
This is not for novice DMs, but has the opportunity to be very rich experience. If however a person hates the very thought of Waterdeep then no, I wouldn’t expect them to enjoy this. We knew there would be naysayers before the product was even released though.
pogre
Legend
My group is nearing the end of the Dungeon of the Mad Mage. It's largely been a blast for my group. Although, the OP has stated he is not a fan of megadungeons and I would never recommend it to someone who does not enjoy extended delving.
So the reason I am quoting this message is I want to know what you think the best 5e dungeon is and why? Feel free to PM me - or start a thread - I don't want to derail this thread. My group loves delving and I am always on the lookout for more!
I must not be quite as picky, because my group has enjoyed most of the adventure paths. Dragon Heist was a hot mess, but we had a good time.
G
Guest 6801328
Guest
No, I mean there are four chapters detailing the lairs of the four villains, but even then the one that correlates to your chosen villain isn't even part of the default railroad: if you want your party to visit it you have to improvise a reason.
If you're using milestone leveling they all reach level 5, and complete the adventure, without going anywhere near the four lairs.
Honestly I'm just going to wrap it up as written and move on to something else.
LordEntrails
Hero
Ah, I didn't notice that because I only read about half of it before I encountered the Alexandrian Remix and have used that as my driving philosophy
What are you going to run next?
Hussar
Legend
I ran Dragon Heist. I'd say that if you want to run a campaign in Waterdeep, then DH is a Fantastic resource. As a campaign in and of itself? Yeah, not great. Not bad and some fun parts, but, frankly, if you're looking for an adventure rather than a setting sourcebook, it's not very good.
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