Dragon Magazine #337 details?

[zoroaster100]

I'm going to have to pick this issue up at a store, and next issue as well. Hmmm...perhaps I need to renew my Dragon subscription afterall. And I thought I was going to be able to just keep Dungeon and do without Dragon, and then they go and make it all full of interesting and useful articles!
The articles on fluff for the various core Greyhawk gods sound particularily useful.

 

[Alzrius]

This was intentional. While not literally a god, Sul Khatesh has power to rival that of a lesser deity. Deities and Demigods says "Deities do not have Challenge Ratings. Entities of this sort are so far above the realm of mortal heroes that determing their level of power in relation to mortals becomes almost meaningless." The rules for Divine Encounters and Experience Points should apply to encounters with overlords.

While I understand where you're coming from on this, I feel that it showcases a weak point of D&Dg more than anything else. Essentially, giving full statistics except for a Challenge Rating, with the justification that said creature shouldn't be something to defeat in combat, is ridiculous. All it really does (IMHO) is make it more unclear what an appropriate average party level should be if you did want them to fight the creature.

The idea of gods (or god-like beings) being "so far above the realm of mortal heroes that determing their level of power in relation to mortals becomes almost meaningless." is easily disproven...in fact, in D&Dg, a few paragraphs later, they give the example of how a group of 65th-level characters would fairly easily defeat Imhotep. Any group of mortal characters of sufficient level will be able to defeat any creature, even a deity.

While creatures like Sul Khatesh should never be considered just another monster to fight, it seems perfectly reasonable to expect that at the end of a campaign, the PCs should get to fight such a monster as the Final Battle. Not having a challenge rating given just makes it more likely that when that happens, the battle will be either too easy or too difficult.

 

[Nightfall]

Keith,

*agog at the fact Keith put in what is probably should be considered an Eberronic Archfiend* Keith you just got a +5 inherent bonus for that.


And yeah it is between me and the DM. But as I said, any input you offer me, which I can pass along to him, would be EXTREMELY appreciated. Dragons eh? Well don't care much for them but if my Celestial ancestors don't want me to, I'd reconsider. Even so, glad to know there wasn't a true specific group opposed to keeping the planes where they are. In any case, you've been EXTREMELY helpful Keith. Probably what I love about this setting is the fact you take the time to post and answers questions. Good deal.

 

[Hellcow]

Not having a challenge rating given just makes it more likely that when that happens, the battle will be either too easy or too difficult.

*shrug* Fair enough. The point to me is that when and if I use such a creature in my game, I don't expect the players to defeat it based on their character level - just going toe to toe and beating it down. I expect them to be using artifacts designed for that purpose, to be allying with other nigh-divine forces, to be serving as agents of prophecy. My plan isn't to toss her into an adventure with a bunch of other CR 45 creatures; it's that she should overshadow both party and other encounters, and require them to stretch beyond the limit of level.

With that said, I do see your point: just because I don't expect a party to match her CR doesn't change the fact that if she had a CR, you could choose to ignore it if you wanted to, and you'd know "Our 65th level party will cream her". But the fact of the matter is that I didn't calculate it because D&Dg says not to, and it would take some time digging up references to decide on a fair match. You can just add up her levels and through in +7 (which is what D&Dg suggests), but honestly, I don't know that this gives you a fair bead. This is what's done with Kastharhak, who is a CR 10 raksasha with 14 character levels (CR 24); but if you compare him to Zuggtmoy at CR 25, my money's on Zuggy.

Anyhow, I respect your frustration at the CR not being there; perhaps Paizo will decide to post one, and I'll at least keep it in mind in the future. But technically it's not an error, because the rules say not to do it; it would be a bonus if it was there.

 

[Nightfall]

Eh don't worry Keith. I just have to give you two big toes, two big thumbs, and two greatswords up for creating an Archfiend. That kicks butt.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Hmm no FR stuff in 337 ...Ill pass

Other than explicit information about how the monsters fit into Toril ... :\

 

[Nightfall]

There's always Dragon #338 or #339.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Nope. The article talks a little bit about Zuggtmoy's relationship with Iuz, though, which is one degree of separation away.

(Zuggtmoy is indeed cr25, for the record)

I really liked the mention of the Temple of Elemental Evil and the Iuz thing. It was nice to see the official material referenced. It's a bit silly not to, since that's Zuggtmoy's only appearance, but it's almost surprising.

The intro was funny, did you have any trouble searching for words to use with Fungus?

The Final Feast was suitably creepy, as was Zuggtmoy's Cradle. I'd have liked for there to be some stats for something grown from the Cradle, but I'll make do with the included monsters.

All in all, my favorite article in a long time. I also liked the Nerve Swimmers and the Lords of Dust article was good fun. Probably my favorite overall issue in a while.

 

[BOZ]

Other than explicit information about how the monsters fit into Toril ... :\

you can thank Shade for that one.

 

[James Jacobs]

(Zuggtmoy is indeed cr25, for the record)

I really liked the mention of the Temple of Elemental Evil and the Iuz thing. It was nice to see the official material referenced. It's a bit silly not to, since that's Zuggtmoy's only appearance, but it's almost surprising.

The intro was funny, did you have any trouble searching for words to use with Fungus?

I grew up playing 1st edition, so those old-time references are near and dear to my heart. You can expect to see similar references in future Demonomicon entries... After all, it makes no sense to me to ignore or abandon the work previous game designers have put in on a monster, even if in some cases I think that some of those choices might have been poor. As an example, Zuggtmoy's description from the 1st edition Temple always seemed a bit comical and underwhelming to me; the incarnation of her from the recent video game seemed so much more interesting that I went with that one for her true from. Yet I couldn't just completely ignore the old version, so now that form represents the humiliating form she was bound into in the Temple, and remains the one she uses for her aspect.

As for the intro (I assume you're talking about the opening poem)... those are actually always the hardest parts of these articles to write. Takes a couple hours to write a half dozen or dozen lines... gah! I really like how they've turned out so far, especially how you can almost sing Zuggtmoy's poem to the tune of "Rockabye Baby."