Dragon + snatch feat = TPK?

[Malcolm]

Hrmm...

I've used various dragons so far vs. my players and don't remember running into problems snatching medium creatures up. I know there is a size limit if it wants to do certain other things... (doesn't have books at work..*grumble*)

Dragons should have no problem with it either way.

Things that help players survive:

Core rules = Dim. Door items/spells, High amounts of Escape Artist + Haste.

Splat books = Close-Quarters-fighting (unfortunately only vs the first attack. if the dragon does Bite/claw/claw there are 2 others...)

My rules = players have access to luck points (free re-rolls that are taken like feats and replace them), some spell interpretations (such as Freedom of Movement aiding the escape from a Grapple), and are only successful vs. dragons that They are attacking by surprise, not the other way around.
Still there are about 2 deaths out of 6 players per dragon encounter.

 

[Nail]

I was going to get all clever and quote the SRD about the dragon snatch ability....but dragons are not in the SRD!!!! What!!!!???????

Try here.

 

[Nail]

Welll....here it is from the Wyvern:

Snatch: If a wyvern gets a hold on a creature four or more sizes smaller, it automatically deals damage with both claws and its sting attacks each round the hold is maintained. The wyvern can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 30 feet and takes 3d6 points of damage. If the wyvern flings it while flying, the creature suffers this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.

 

[Derren]

Do they have to be large or huge to snatch a medium-sized creature? In either case, the more powerful dragons are usually huge or larger.

They must be 2 (3?) or more size categories larger to deal automatic damage every round. But they can use the Snatch (And get Improved Grab) at every size category. They only need to be able to carry the weight and to succeed at the grapple with the -20 penalty.

 

[Tiberius]

I was going to get all clever and quote the SRD about the dragon snatch ability....but dragons are not in the SRD!!!! What!!!!???????

Try here.

The opengamingfoundation.org SRD is out of date. Use the one found at www.wizards.com/d20. Or take the shortcut to the dragon one.

-Tiberius

[EDIT: Hmmm... it looks like that link isn't working. In theory it should, but maybe Wizards is having some sort of problem I don't know about.]

[Edit2: The link works again.]

 

[AEtherfyre]

This would be the relevant text.

Snatch: A dragon that hits with a claw or bite attack attempts to start a grapple as though it had the improved grab special attack. If the dragon gets a hold with a claw on a creature four or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic claw damage. If it gets a hold with its bite on a creature three or more sizes smaller, it automatically deals bite damage each round, or if it does not move and takes no other action in combat, it deals double bite damage to the snatched creature. A snatched creature gets no saving throw against the dragon's breath weapon. The dragon can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage, per age category of the dragon. If the dragon flings it while flying, the creature suffers this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.

Note that this is improved grab with extras. The dragon only needs to be one size larger - a hatchling Red could use Improved Grab against a halfling, if not the bonus stuff.

 

[Destil]

The other problem dragon feat is hover, because of the dust cloud and their blindsight abilities.

OT: Cool sig pic, Dareoon Dalandrove. Stand Alone Complex is some of the best anime I've seen in a while.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

also remember if the dragon is trying to do a flyby snatch its a -20 to the grapple check.(not a auto stop considering a dragons size and AB) But that might mean fly in grab. then fly out, on the dragons who size wize just can pull it off. It gives the party chances to do something in return. Haste of course lets them fly in grab and fly out, but they only are a single move a way, well within a parties response range. That's a lot of spells arrows flying at the dragon.

Crap just look at the ranges on bows, visible dragons would have to be suicidal to attack a party out in the open air.

 

[Malcolm]

with dragons able to choose: Shield, Mage Armor, Prot Good, Shield of Faith (Cleric accessing ones), and various other spells (depending on the books used) I would seriously hate to see some PCs try to kill one using Archery. Should they even penetrate all of this, as most arrows still don't do touch attacks, the only ones doing great amounts of damage would be the archery specialized ones.
Plus if the Dragon wings it towards a party more than 200 feet away, it should be Invis'd on some level. True Sight, etc. work within a medium range that is limited.
In the one round it takes to Dive on you, you're going to get one shot off with those bows.
Better make it a good one...
/criesforarcherPCsversusDragons*

 

[Dark Eternal]

You know, after reading this thread, and giving the matter some serious thought, I have a question.


How do dragons ever lose to pc's?