Dragon + snatch feat = TPK?

[The Forsaken One]

Wingbind
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One winged creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will half
Spell Resistance: Yes

The subject's wings become paralyzed. The subject cannot use its wings to fly, swim, attack, or anything else requiring movement. If the creature is currently flying, it falls and suffers normal falling damage.

If the creature succeeds at its saving throw against this spell, its wings are only partially paralyzed. Its fly speed is reduced to one-half and its fly maneuverability drops by one category. If it uses its wings to swim, its swim speed is reduced as well. Attacks with the wings have a -2 circumstance penalty.

Arcane Focus: A pair of iron nails.

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by Plane Sailing:

Presumably you would allow sense motive in here too (probably against bluff)?

No, I absolutely want to keep these kinds of checks separate.

Sense Motive has it's place and does enough already. All I'm aiming to do is add value to the raw stat alone.


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[ForceUser]

How could a group possibly avoid a TPK when fighting a dragon?

My 8th-level group encountered this very scenario a few sessions ago in the lair of a green dragon. We defeated the dragon only because our psion cast suggestion on it. The suggestion? Land.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Hmm; two very interesting topics on one thread! Excellent...

1) Dragons: Personally, I just think they're under-CRed. IMC, I house-rule dragons to have CRs 2-4 above the listed values in the MM, with a corresponding increase in SR. Even at the revised CRs, my players are terrified of dragon encounters.

2) Playing intelligence: The usual tack I take when dealing with intelligence is just to award more information to more intelligent beings. This is obviously easy to do for NPCs, since I can just use the body of information I have on the PCs, and let more intelligent foes "cheat" by using info on the PCs' character sheets and experience with previous tactics and habits of the players when making decisions. For PCs, I describe who or what they see differently to each player, going in order from the player with the least intelligent PC to the player with the most intelligent PC and giving out additional and more complex details with each player. I don't bother with ability checks; either the PCs notice details or they don't. (Obviously, Listen, Spot, Search, and Sense Motive checks work normally!)

 

[Nightchilde-2]

As scared as most characters should be of a dragon's snatch (hoo boy...), see Savage Species. See the feat "improved flyby attack."

If the dragon can line 'em up just right, you're looking at dealing a fair amount of damage to every member of the party, and getting out of melee range to boot.

Between that and a good roll on Rapid Breath, you have a TPK pretty easy...(improved flyby attack, breath weapon...improved flyby attack...breath weapon).

I won't even get into the Improved Invisibility + a few rogue levels + improved flyby attack combo.....

 

[A'koss]

Originally Posted by ruleslawyer:

1) Dragons: Personally, I just think they're under-CRed. IMC, I house-rule dragons to have CRs 2-4 above the listed values in the MM, with a corresponding increase in SR. Even at the revised CRs, my players are terrified of dragon encounters.

Just FYI, dragons were deliberately under CR'd by the designers. Dragons were to represent a "challenging" encounter for their CR. Seriously. That was a question that we had raised during the original playtest.

2) Playing intelligence: The usual tack I take when dealing with intelligence is just to award more information to more intelligent beings. This is obviously easy to do for NPCs, since I can just use the body of information I have on the PCs, and let more intelligent foes "cheat" by using info on the PCs' character sheets and experience with previous tactics and habits of the players when making decisions. For PCs, I describe who or what they see differently to each player, going in order from the player with the least intelligent PC to the player with the most intelligent PC and giving out additional and more complex details with each player. I don't bother with ability checks; either the PCs notice details or they don't. (Obviously, Listen, Spot, Search, and Sense Motive checks work normally!)

Indeed. Like many DMs we used to handle it a lot like this. However, our group didn't like the lack of granularity... For example, what is the tangible, measurable difference between someone with a 20 Int. and another with a 26 Int. and how do you handle these differences consistantly. Therefore, at least for us, a solid game rule was in order.


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[hong]

And to answer the question: as any member of BADD could tell you, the main reason why dragons are ever killed is because DM's don't play them to their full abilities.

The main reason why dragons are killed is because the DM remembers that they're supposed to lose.

 

[Angcuru]

I suggest a variant rule where during the write-up of the dragon, you roll a d100 and if the result is the (weight of the DM divided by the collective shoe sizes of all the players) plus the DM's age, then the dragon has alzhiemers disease and forgets that it can fly in a direction other than straight into the ground.

 

[ForceUser]

The main reason why dragons are killed is because the DM remembers that they're supposed to lose.

Not true. Not with my DMs. We don't coddle the PCs. We don't set up rainbows and special parades and hand them magic items off of trees. Among my circle of regular DMs and players, we play it by the numbers. Dragon fights are SUPPOSED to be tough. You DO NOT pull punches. You win some, you lose some, and you have fun either way.

All we do as DMs is make sure the encounter is CR-appropriate. When my Greyhawk DM threw that green dragon at us I spoke of earlier, we thought we were fuxxored. It attacked from the wing. It breathed and swooped out of range. It shrugged off some spells and cast some of its own. Our fighters couldn't hit it. Our sorcerer hid and wouldn't attack it. It whittled away at our acid protection spells with impunity for several rounds.

And then our psion used his head and suggested to the green that it land. And because of that we won.

I have been in several 3E dragon fights where DMs pulled out all the stops. Yes, they are HAIRY encounters. Yes, characters may die. That is INTENDED. It's SUPPOSED to be tough. It's a dragon. But it is by no means invincible, and if the players are smart or lucky they can win. And in years to come they will remember that fight. I remember every 3E dragon encounter I have had, because they have all been memorable. So stop selling your BS, hong. I'm not buying

 

[Hypersmurf]

The Dragon section of the SRD is on the OGF site... but it's not linked from the index page.

An oversight, I think.

From memory, the URL is :

www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdmonstersdragons.rtf

-Hyp.