D&D 5E Dragonkin vs Dragonborn?

[Zardnaar]

For those of you with the Midgard Heroes PDF are Dragonkin better than Dragonborn? Dragonborn seem to be underpowered in 5E while osme of the Dragonkin look to be interesting as options.

For those of you without the Midgard Heroess PDF the Dragonkin have 5 subraces. The baseline one has.

+2 Charisma
25' movement (as a Dwarf)
Darkvision
Persuasion Skill

Each subclass gets +1 to an ability score (str, dex, con, wis, int), a cantrip, and resistance (poison, cold, acid, lightning, fire)

The cantrips

Produce Fire
Shocking Grasp
Shillelagh
Blade Ward
Poison Spray

And they all key off Charisma. One of the subraces for example can be a Paladin or whatever and lay the smackdown with shillelagh keyed off charisma. Similar ideas with Sorcerer and Green Flame Blade.

 

[Croesus]

For those of you with the Midgard Heroes PDF are Dragonkin better than Dragonborn? Dragonborn seem to be underpowered in 5E while osme of the Dragonkin look to be interesting as options.

Interesting. I've had the Midgard Heroes PDF for some time now, but never really read through it. I've always been disappointed that dragonborn felt like half-orcs with dragon blood. Their breath weapon is underwhelming, and overall just never inspired me much.

Looking at the dragonkin, I agree that they are more interesting, though mostly be being more varied - the 5 types are quite different mechanically and in background. I'll show the PDF to my group the next time someone creates a new character and see what happens.

BTW, one change I would likely make: if the character is a spellcaster, they can use their primary spellcasting stat in place of Charisma for the free cantrip. Since it's just one cantrip, it seems a waste for the player to keep track of two different modifiers for his/her spells. This change wouldn't be for balance, just ease of play.

Thanks for the thread.

 

[Zardnaar]

Mechanically Midgard Heroes had done a good job with the Gearforged, Ghoul, Centaur and Trollkin.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Mechanically Midgard Heroes had done a good job with the Gearforged,

Heh.

 

[Xeviat]

I think I like the standard breath weapon over the cantrip.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think I like the standard breath weapon over the cantrip.

Fair enough, the shillelagh one though is interesting.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Why Shillelagh and Blade Ward instead of Ray of Frost or Frostbite?

It seems to me that instead of the cantrips matching the Draconic Blood line they used the lack of an Acid Cantrip to justify giving them cantrips that really should stay with the classes they are part of.

The dragon breath is a better solution because it does not detract from classes, you don't double up if you take a class, and if you want those cantrips so much use the Magic Initiate feat. If you have a problem with dragon breaths not being reusable give it charges. If you think its too underpowered make it scale better with character level. This seems to me like a bad design to allow someone access to a cantrip they want (primarily Shillelagh) with out paying for it. Blade Ward is just in appropriate. If you think the hide should count, then they should have an unarmored AC bonus like the sorcerer draconic origin not a spell which is basically an attempt to steel from Barbarians. It would be closer (but bad) to say the magic in your blood dives you access to 1 sorcerer meta magic of your choice because that is the premise behind the Draconic Origin Sorcerer but then... why not just play a Draconic Origin Sorcerer?

All my opinion of course, but if the problem is the dragon breath racial why not fix that ability instead of steeling cantrips you want that really have nothing to do with the race?

 

[Zardnaar]

Why Shillelagh and Blade Ward instead of Ray of Frost or Frostbite?

It seems to me that instead of the cantrips matching the Draconic Blood line they used the lack of an Acid Cantrip to justify giving them cantrips that really should stay with the classes they are part of.

The dragon breath is a better solution because it does not detract from classes, you don't double up if you take a class, and if you want those cantrips so much use the Magic Initiate feat. If you have a problem with dragon breaths not being reusable give it charges. If you think its too underpowered make it scale better with character level. This seems to me like a bad design to allow someone access to a cantrip they want (primarily Shillelagh) with out paying for it. Blade Ward is just in appropriate. If you think the hide should count, then they should have an unarmored AC bonus like the sorcerer draconic origin not a spell which is basically an attempt to steel from Barbarians. It would be closer (but bad) to say the magic in your blood dives you access to 1 sorcerer meta magic of your choice because that is the premise behind the Draconic Origin Sorcerer but then... why not just play a Draconic Origin Sorcerer?

All my opinion of course, but if the problem is the dragon breath racial why not fix that ability instead of steeling cantrips you want that really have nothing to do with the race?

No idea.
The Shillelagh Dragonkin gets +1 dex, shillelagh and poison resistance.

The rest of them do not look that exciting.

 

[Croesus]

Why Shillelagh and Blade Ward instead of Ray of Frost or Frostbite?

It seems to me that instead of the cantrips matching the Draconic Blood line they used the lack of an Acid Cantrip to justify giving them cantrips that really should stay with the classes they are part of.
.
..snip...

All my opinion of course, but if the problem is the dragon breath racial why not fix that ability instead of steeling cantrips you want that really have nothing to do with the race?

Whereas I see the cantrips as a bit of dragon magic in these demi-dragons, and more nuanced than a dragon breath weapon.

I do agree that some of the cantrips don't seem quite right, e.g., we substituted acid splash for blade ward. We also decided to allow the character to choose either Persuasion or Intimidation as the trained skill - both seemed appropriate for a dragonkin.

 

[GreenTengu]

To be honest, it looks like they kind of just wrote in what the person who was interested in playing the race wanted regardless whether it was terribly well justified.

Compared to anyone else, the first thing that stands out about Draconic people is that they are big, meaty and scaly. That says a Constitution or Strength bonus well above anything you might want to posit about Charisma. Moreover, why a bonus to Persuasion rather than Intimidation? I am very likely to do what a dragon-person tells me, but not because I expect a rationally and emotionally appealing argument-- it would be entirely out of fear of a cold-blooded monster with crocodile teeth and razor claws.

I am guessing the whole thing was build off Charisma because they went with Cantrips that were based off Charisma? But that just doesn't make sense in the slightest.

First, the fact that they felt themselves limited to the cantrips available in the book is not so good. Moreover, given that these are meant to represent an innate physical aspect of the race and not some sort of mystical power that they are shaping, I really don't see why the dragon breath ability should in the least bit be triggered off of a mental/social stat at all. Why not just trigger the Dragon Breath off Constitution? Sure, admittedly, there is not a single other example of an offensive power being triggered off of Constitution, but in this case we are looking at something where a very healthy dragon with good, big lungs and a body that recovers its natural chemicals in a short time is going to be able to produce considerably more fire or lightning and project that effectively than a charming dragon.


As typical with Kobold Press, while their artists may be top notch and they may be better writers and FAR better at coming up with adventures, when it comes to the actual mechanics... there hasn't been a single instance where I don't look at what they present and know for a fact that I, or anyone with a decent grasp on the basic concepts, could come up with something better without even putting much thought into it.