Dragonlance [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?

[Alzrius]

Thing is, the Wall was not created by Ed Greenwood (who has voiced that he also dislikes the Wall, as it messes up with the idea he had of how the afterlife in the Realms should work). It was an addendum of some author of the novels for some reason.

Bear in mind that Ed Greenwood wrote the FRE adventures, i.e. the module adaptations of the Avatar trilogy of novels, where we first saw the Wall that I'm aware of. While FRE3 Waterdeep doesn't mention the Wall specifically (since the part where Midnight travels to Myrkul's realm is glossed over due to the PCs not going with her), it does give a monster write-up for the Denizens of Myrkul's realm, noting that they "often fly out over the Fugue Plain [sic] of Hades to harvest the waiting souls of the False and Faithless."

 

[Zeromaru X]

Well, remember that the Realms are not Ed's alone. There is a contract in between. In published works, Ed cannot contradict what is already written in a published work. This doesn't mean he has to agree with that.

I guess the Spellplague is a good example of this.

 

[Zsong]

Thing is, the Wall was not created by Ed Greenwood (who has voiced that he also dislikes the Wall, as it messes up with the idea he had of how the afterlife in the Realms should work). It was an addendum of some author of the novels for some reason.

I thought greenwood sold the game and hundreds of people have developed it since he sold it. I could be wrong.

 

[Argyle King]

The problem with your theoretical position of seeing this from the eyes of someone within the setting is that it assumes that someone within the setting, with full access to all the facts we have, would have a different reaction. And there are only two flavors of positions I can see differing from my own.

The first is "Those who do not worship the divine majesty of the Gods deserve what they get". And this position is... well it is bigotry and worse. It assumes that holding a different belief that harms no one is something deserving of punishment. Worse, since we are explicitly told ( in Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad chapter 43 as referenced in an earlier post) that being insane does not exempt someone from the Wall, that means that this position also is that people with mental illnesses deserve to be punished.

That same quote from earlier (Alzrius post #234 ) also shows us that Mystra doesn't think that is how things should work, which tells me that even in the Realms... that is kind of an extreme position.


The second position? "The gods do what they will, and we just need to keep our heads down." Which really smacks of Stockholme syndrome and just the acceptance that we are too weak to actually change anything. Which is a perfectly logical thing for a peasant to think. It isn't like they can travel to the Fugue plane and demand things from Kelemvor. But, reorienting back to us instead of them, we can change it. We are not powerless in the face of unfair gods, we are the ones holding the pen.



Also, an aside, I do not see "sanitizing DnD" as the "broader issue" in this thread. We are talking about the Wall. If you want to start a new thread wondering about how a combat game can be justified from a moral viewpoint, go ahead, but that has nothing to do with my objections to the Wall. Because, if we were in a setting like Theros, where the Gods are as much feared as revered, and the Wall had existed as a punishment since the beginning of time, used only to punish those who defied the Gods and invoked their wrath, then I'd be fine with it. Because the point there is that the Gods are terrible, taking the Ovid view that they are all petty tyrants who throw fits and punish languishing mortals for no good reason.

But that is not the thematic bedrock of FR.

My initial reaction is that the viewpoint (I believe) I would have would be one of these two:

1) I care enough to do something about it.
a) I gain enough personal power to be capable of destroying the wall.
b) I gain enough personal power to be capable of controlling how/if the wall works.
c) I seek out powerful beings who have an interest in circumventing or destroying the wall (and help them).

2) I don't care enough to do something about it.
a) On my deathbed, I repent and express my faith in a deity.
b) I pick out whichever deity sounds as though they have the coolest afterlife available and offer sincere praise.
c) I pick out a deity and offer the bare minimum worship to not suffer the wall.

Another option (whether I care about the wall or not) would be to seek out some of way of never dying.


In regards to the "broader issue":
-My position was not that it was a broader issue to this thread overall, but to comment on something which does appear to be a contemporary struggle of entertainment brands -balancing interesting conflict-driven narrative against modern mores.

In regards to Forgotten Realms themes:
-I will admit to not being familiar with what the underlying principles of Forgotten Realms are intended to be.
-My perception is that powerful beings, gods, and creatures engaging in some sort of political dance is part and parcel for the setting; the controversy surrounding the wall seems to fit with that (and could be a catalyst for in-setting conflicts between beings on either side of the Wall issue).
-As stated several times before, neither the inclusion nor absence of the wall from the setting is of particular interest to me, but I do not see the inclusion of it as being particularly troublesome (aside from what has been pointed out by others as poorly defined function and questionable writing decisions).

-edited to fix a grammar issue-

 

[DnD Warlord]

If I ran the tear down the wall campaign I would need god stats... here is what I think I will start with:

Kelemvor CR31

AC 23 (defensive) HP 700 (30d20+300) 30ft

40 Str+15 28 dex +9 31 con +10

24 Int +7 34 wis +12 31 cha +10

Saves: Str +18 Dex +12 Con +22 Int +10 Wis +24 Cha +22

Skills: Athletics +18, Arcana +16, Perception +21, Religion +16

Damage Immune: Necrotic, Poison, Bludgeoning Piercing and slashing from non magic attacks

Damage Resistance: Cold, Fire, Lighting, Bludgeoning Piercing and Slashing from magic attacks

Condition Immunity: blinded, charmed, deafened, frightened, posioned, stunned

Senses: Darkvision 300ft, True sight 60ft, passive perception 31

Languages: All



Freedom of movement:

Legendary Resistance(5/day): When kelemvor misses a save he instead can burn one use of this to succeed.

Indomitable (4/day): When kelemvor misses a saving throw he can reroll it.

Limited Magic immunity: Kelemvor is not affected by any spell level 5 or lower unless he wishes to be. He also has advantage on all saves vs magic.

Regeneration: Kelemvor regains 20hp at the start of each of his turns.

Panther form: When Kelmvor is bloodied (350 or less hp) he turns into a raging panther. Any conditions on him end and he uses the stats below. If that form is dropped to o hp, or is killed he returns to this form at 349 hps and any or all conditions on panther form end.

Action Surge(4/short rest): As no action Kelmvor can take another action

Second Wind(2/short rest): as a bonus action Kelmvor heals 2d10+30hp

Reaper: when Kelmvor cast a cantrip or 1st-5th level spell that targets only 1 creature he can instead target 2 creatures up to 10ft apart.



Spells: Kelemvor is a 20th level spell caster with Wisdom as his prime stat, (+27 to hit and DC 35)

Cantrips: chill touch, spare the dying, toll the dead

1st level (8): cause fear, false life, inflect wounds, ray of sickness

2nd level(6): blind/deaf, gentle repose, ray of enfeeblement

3rd level (6): animate dead, bestow curse, revivify, vampiric touch

4th level (4): blight, death ward, shadow of moil

5th level (3): anti life shell, cloud kill, contagion, enerveration, raise dead

6th level (2): circle of death, soul cage

7th level (2): divine word, finger of death

8th level (2): earth quake, horrid wilting

9th level (2): astral projection, wish





Actions:

Multi Attack: Kelemvor makes 5 attacks with his long sword when he takes the attack action. He can use a bonus action to make an unarmed strike as well.



DeathBlade (longsword): +28 to hit range 5ft Hit: 27 (2D8+18) slashing plus 13 (3d8) Necrotic (crit 18+)

Unarmed strikes: +28 to hit range 5ft Hit: 23 (2d4+18) bludgeoning plus 13 (3d8) necrotic (crit 18+)



Touch of Death. When Kelemvor hits he can twice per short rest add 45 to the damage.



Panther form

AC 18 HP 80 (10d8+20) 30ft

18 Str +4 19 dex +4 14 con +2

24 Int +7 34 wis +12 31 cha +10

Damage Immune: Necrotic, Poison, Bludgeoning Piercing and slashing from non magic attacks

Damage Resistance: all but psychic

Condition Immunity: blinded, charmed, deafened, frightened, posioned, stunned

Senses: Darkvision 30ft, passive perception 22

Languages: none but understands common and celestial



Keen Smell

Pounce

Regenerate: when panther form Kelmvor has 40 or less HP he regains 7hp per turn



Actions (Panther form Kelemvor has advantage on all attacks)

Bite +16 14 (2d6+7) plus 13 (3d8) necrotic (crit 18+)

Claw +16 12 (2d4+7) plus 13 (3d8) necrotic (crit 18+)

 

[Weiley31]

Being slowly and torturously turned into a non-sentient brick is not the same thing as instantaneously joining the void and ceasing to exist.

I mean, technically one can argue that turning into a non-sentient brick is basically a form of ceasing to exist.

 

[Weiley31]

Kelemvor is LN and just there to follow the rules, but still.

Kelemvor is the store manager.

 

[Voadam]

I mean, technically one can argue that turning into a non-sentient brick is basically a form of ceasing to exist.

But that's only eventually.

3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting page 259:

All of the Faithless receive the same punishment: They form a living wall around the City of Judgment, held together by a supernatural greenish mold. This mold prevents them from escaping the wall and eventually breaks down their substance until the soul and its consciousness are dissolved.

Sounds like the faithless have a consciousness until they are dissolved.

From page 232

Everyone in Faerûn knows that those who die without having a patron deity to send a servant to collect them from the Fugue Plane at their death spend eternity writhing in the Wall of the Faithless or disappear into the hells of the devils or the infernos of the demons.

So they are conscious and writhing as part of a living wall.

 

[Zeromaru X]

I thought greenwood sold the game and hundreds of people have developed it since he sold it. I could be wrong.

Yes, that is true. However, he still has some input in the published products. He is consulted by WotC and whatnot.

 

[Weiley31]

To be honest, I do like the Wall of The Faithless, but that's mostly due to Mask of the Betrayer and how it played a big part in its main story.