Dragonlance [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?

[Zsong]

Kelemvor is the store manager.

I would like to speak to the manager

 

[Chaosmancer]

My initial reaction is that the viewpoint (I believe) I would have would be one of these two:

1) I care enough to do something about it.
a) I gain enough personal power to be capable of destroying the wall.
b) I gain enough personal power to be capable of controlling how/if the wall works.
c) I seek out powerful beings who have an interest in circumventing or destroying the wall (and help them).

This ignores that a,b and c are pretty much impossible for the common person. Especially with things mentioned below.

2) I don't care enough to do something about it.
a) On my deathbed, I repent and express my faith in a deity.
b) I pick out whichever deity sounds as though they have the coolest afterlife available and offer sincere praise.
c) I pick out a deity and offer the bare minimum worship to not suffer the wall.

Another option (whether I care about the wall or not) would be to seek out some of way of never dying.

You don't care enough to try changing something far above your ability to change, so you try the following.

a) Good luck with that, because of b
b) "Sincere Praise" is the tricky part, isn't it. If you have spent your life not worshipping the gods then offering them sincere praise is a very difficult, if not impossible thing to do. You can't alter your own opinions on a whim.
c) And so, you end up paying lip service to the diety you find least intrusive, out of fear. Which likely makes you False, which gets you either walled or tortured by Devils.

And so you seek lichdom to never die, potentially spreading more evil into the world.

-My perception is that powerful beings, gods, and creatures engaging in some sort of political dance is part and parcel for the setting; the controversy surrounding the wall seems to fit with that (and could be a catalyst for in-setting conflicts between beings on either side of the Wall issue).

But, in universe, the Wall is not controversial. None of the Deities decry it. Even Mystra as Midnight, who was super good and was keeping magic from bad people didn't go "You are using the Wall! How dare you!" She said "Why are you putting my High Priest in the Wall because he was driven mad?! He doesn't deserve that."

So, there is no political dance, there is no conflict, there is no controversy in-universe. Everyone just accepts that the Wall is a thing.

 

[Weiley31]

What exactly is the paradise/afterlife for Bhaal worshippers? This is the first time this question has JUST crossed my mind because of this thread.

 

[Weiley31]

Well, I guess one reason for the Wall could be seen in another way: When you get to the Fume Plane, one of three things happen:

A: You stand in line until Kelevmor stamps your hand saying "NEXT!!" and then you go wait off at *insert Deity's Bus Stop till Torm or whoever comes to pick ya up after looking at your ticket.

B: You become part of the wall.

C: While waiting in line or before standing in line for Kelevmor, Devils literally walk up to you, army recruit style, and pretty much gives you the "Asmodeus needs you!" pitch in hopes you'll sign up and do your Lawful Evil duty.


And with the Blood War, the Demons and Devils are too busy trying to 1-up each other that giving one side TOO many recruits, the Devils in this case, would/could tip the scale where they win and turn their sights on the Material Plane/Multi-Verse.

And that is TOO MUCH PAPERWORK for Kelevmor, or any Deity, to deal with.

 

[Argyle King]

This ignores that a,b and c are pretty much impossible for the common person. Especially with things mentioned below.



You don't care enough to try changing something far above your ability to change, so you try the following.

a) Good luck with that, because of b
b) "Sincere Praise" is the tricky part, isn't it. If you have spent your life not worshipping the gods then offering them sincere praise is a very difficult, if not impossible thing to do. You can't alter your own opinions on a whim.
c) And so, you end up paying lip service to the diety you find least intrusive, out of fear. Which likely makes you False, which gets you either walled or tortured by Devils.

And so you seek lichdom to never die, potentially spreading more evil into the world.



But, in universe, the Wall is not controversial. None of the Deities decry it. Even Mystra as Midnight, who was super good and was keeping magic from bad people didn't go "You are using the Wall! How dare you!" She said "Why are you putting my High Priest in the Wall because he was driven mad?! He doesn't deserve that."

So, there is no political dance, there is no conflict, there is no controversy in-universe. Everyone just accepts that the Wall is a thing.

If it's impossible for the common person, that sounds like a great motivation for adventuring.

Is there some defined measurement of how pious the general person is? From how it sounds, the gods in FR are generally vain and lazy -until they decide to actually get involved in something. It doesn't sound difficult to exploit that. At the risk of bringing up real-world controversy, it reminds me of travel bans based on religion:

"Are you a follower of [insert faith]?"
[whatever answer gets me the side of the wall I want to be on]

Deathbed confessions aren't an unusual religious concept either.

Lichdom doesn't seem all that bad, given the possible alternatives. I could start out as a common person, eventually adventuring to gain power because I have some vested interest in the wall, souls, and etc. Eventually, through study of the Wall, I learn enough about souls, soul containment, and related topics to create a phylactery. Then, I work with some devils and disgruntled angels to figure out a way to build a phylactery which serves as a supernatural soul conduit to tap into the energy of the wall. I spend the rest of eternity lowkey syphoning soul power out of the Wall and super-charging myself to become all-powerful. Meanwhile, I can plant a few rumors about a lich who knows how to circumvent the rules of the horrific Wall; I gain followers; and I eventually am worshipped as a god myself. Maybe I cut Asmodeus into the soul action, so as to gain a powerful ally in the soul-siphoning and trading business.

 

[Olrox17]

I was not talking about Kel. I was answering to the hypothesis that the Lawful Good gods would argue if the Wall was just or not, but here people only see the "lawful" part of Lawful Good. That's why I mentioned that they would also care about stuff like if the nature of punishment is really according to the nature of the "crime". Faithless do exist in the rest of the multiverse, and there is no punishment for them there. And the gods also depends on worship for power and sustenance in other worlds. And many gods of the Realms are multispheric and know about this fact.

So, the most likely answer of the Lawful Good deities is that the Wall is a harsh punishment for a not that harming crime (because, if it was a harming crime, something would already have happened in the multiverse because of Faithlessness; and nothing has happened).

Now, all defaults to whatever Kelemvor wants to do with the Wall. The Lawful Good deities have nothing to do with it. But, if they at least had voiced their concerns, I won't feel as if the Good gods of the Realms are all a bunch of hypocrites...

I would be totally ok with that. Something like:

• Evil deities are big fans of the wall, let the puny mortal who dared defy the gods suffer;
• Neutral deities see the wall as a necessary evil, to prevent the mortal from going astray (like apparently happened in the past when Kel tried to be nicer);
• Good dieties would love to tear down the wall, but an interplanar war between the gods would be catastrophic. So they sponsor mortals willing to use guerrilla tactics to wrest free souls from the wall (mask of the betrayer style).

Then what is the lawful justification of the use of Myrkul's torture device?

"Well, the previous administration instituted this policy of fear and torture for his own sadistic amusement. I'm not amused, I do not want to spread fear, but the torture part is established so I guess I have to do it. Can't just go back to the older laws before that clearly non-lawful being changed everything."

"and unfortunately I can't just go back to the older laws, because in the meantime, Ao changed the way godly power works. Now mortal worship is required, without it the gods will wither and disappear.
Yes, I tried being more lenient to faithless, and in a few years their numbers multiplied tenfold. Got a lot of angry sendings from the other gods for that, I assure you."

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I have zero problem with the wall of the faithless. It sounds like something that would exist in old pagan religions. Very fitting in my opinion for someone creating a setting that is not based on modern theology

It's not at all like "old pagan religions". As I have said earlier when pagan gods wanted to punish you, they did it while you were alive. The idea of the afterlife being a punishment or reward was a later, Hellenistic development that reached full fruition with Christianity, Islam and post 2nd temple Judaism. The Wall of the Faithless is another artifact of RPG designers wanting some sort of polytheistic paganism in their worlds, but unable to take their thinking away from the religious context in which they were born and raised. What you end up with is some sort of intellectual incoherence.

 

[Zsong]

It's not at all like "old pagan religions". As I have said earlier when pagan gods wanted to punish you, they did it while you were alive. The idea of the afterlife being a punishment or reward was a later, Hellenistic development that reached full fruition with Christianity, Islam and post 2nd temple Judaism. The Wall of the Faithless is another artifact of RPG designers wanting some sort of polytheistic paganism in their worlds, but unable to take their thinking away from the religious context in which they were born and raised. What you end up with is some sort of intellectual incoherence.

For that matter many pagan religions view of an afterlife wasn’t pretty even for good people.

 

[Voadam]

It's not at all like "old pagan religions". As I have said earlier when pagan gods wanted to punish you, they did it while you were alive. The idea of the afterlife being a punishment or reward was a later, Hellenistic development that reached full fruition with Christianity, Islam and post 2nd temple Judaism. The Wall of the Faithless is another artifact of RPG designers wanting some sort of polytheistic paganism in their worlds, but unable to take their thinking away from the religious context in which they were born and raised. What you end up with is some sort of intellectual incoherence.

You don't consider classical Greek mythology as an "old pagan religion?"

As you seem to acknowledge, ancient Greek mythology is pretty much the trope setter for afterlife punishment.

Also I believe the ancient Egyptians have the whole weighing your heart after death with a crocodile beast eating those with a bad balance.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If it's impossible for the common person, that sounds like a great motivation for adventuring.

Sure, but much like the guy who says his level 1 paladin is going to Kill Bane, it is a motivation, but most DMs aren't going to actually have it happen, or stick.

Is there some defined measurement of how pious the general person is? From how it sounds, the gods in FR are generally vain and lazy -until they decide to actually get involved in something. It doesn't sound difficult to exploit that. At the risk of bringing up real-world controversy, it reminds me of travel bans based on religion:

"Are you a follower of [insert faith]?"
[whatever answer gets me the side of the wall I want to be on]

Deathbed confessions aren't an unusual religious concept either.

Well, they supposedly have some way of telling, since they can judge you False. Which is "You say you believed, acted like you believed, but really you didn't"

And, the ability of the Judge of the Dead to know the truth of a soul isn't an unusual religious concept either.

Lichdom doesn't seem all that bad, given the possible alternatives. I could start out as a common person, eventually adventuring to gain power because I have some vested interest in the wall, souls, and etc. Eventually, through study of the Wall, I learn enough about souls, soul containment, and related topics to create a phylactery. Then, I work with some devils and disgruntled angels to figure out a way to build a phylactery which serves as a supernatural soul conduit to tap into the energy of the wall. I spend the rest of eternity lowkey syphoning soul power out of the Wall and super-charging myself to become all-powerful. Meanwhile, I can plant a few rumors about a lich who knows how to circumvent the rules of the horrific Wall; I gain followers; and I eventually am worshipped as a god myself. Maybe I cut Asmodeus into the soul action, so as to gain a powerful ally in the soul-siphoning and trading business.

Again, you are free to try, but usually "I ascend to godhood following this six-step path" is beyond the scope of most games.

And, I think the thing you are missing here is that none of these concepts really need the Wall. They are aided by the Wall, because you wrote them that way, but they could work without the Wall.