Dragonlance [Dragonlance] Raistlin vs. Takhisis? How?

[kalani]

Takhisis was far more deadly than Tiamat was in the 1E days. With both of the deities being confirmed as the same being in 5E, I decided to post Takhisis' original 1E stats for comparison sake (Dragonlance Adventures, 1987).

Takhisis

Cleric/Black Robed Wizard (40th level each)
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Movement: 18" / 48"
Armor Class: -10
Hit Points: 999
Hit Dice: 40
# of Attacks: 4
Damage/Attack: 1-1000*/1-1000*/1-1000*/1-1000*
* The damage done by this attack is 1d10 times a number from 1-100, inclusive (Takhisis gets to pick the number!).

That is in addition to 40th level divine and arcane spellcasting abilities.... I have no idea how Raistlin ever managed to kill her given those stats. He is listed as a 20th level Black Robe wizard in a setting with a maximum level cap of 18, and has the following stats.

Raistlin Majere
(20th level human Black Robe Wizard)
STR 10, INT 17, Wis 14, DEX 16, CON 10, CHA 15
Thac0: 9
AL: Chaotic Evil
HP: 44
AC:​ -2

 

[Lord Blackstone]

Takhisis was far more deadly than Tiamat was in the 1E days. With both of the deities being confirmed as the same being in 5E, I decided to post Takhisis' original 1E stats for comparison sake (Dragonlance Adventures, 1987).

Takhisis

Cleric/Black Robed Wizard (40th level each)
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Movement: 18" / 48"
Armor Class: -10
Hit Points: 999
Hit Dice: 40
# of Attacks: 4
Damage/Attack: 1-1000*/1-1000*/1-1000*/1-1000*
* The damage done by this attack is 1d10 times a number from 1-100, inclusive (Takhisis gets to pick the number!).

That is in addition to 40th level divine and arcane spellcasting abilities.... I have no idea how Raistlin ever managed to kill her given those stats. He is listed as a 20th level Black Robe wizard in a setting with a maximum level cap of 18, and has the following stats.

Raistlin Majere
(20th level human Black Robe Wizard)
STR 10, INT 17, Wis 14, DEX 16, CON 10, CHA 15
Thac0: 9
AL: Chaotic Evil
HP: 44
AC:​ -2

I agree. I have always wondered that. She would kick his ass all over the Abyss... Call it writers prerogative

 

[kalani]

Well, here's the thing..... Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weiss were the ones who wrote the DL Adventures book, and the novels both....Were I to hazard a guess, my money was on Tracy being the one who came up with Paladine's and Takhisis' stats (as he was fond of complex rules systems).

There was some obvious MacGuffin combat going on for him to have even lasted a single round against her, let alone fight her to a standstill (before bringing her through the portal to Krynn and offing her).

 

[ruleslawyer]

Takhisis was far more deadly than Tiamat was in the 1E days. With both of the deities being confirmed as the same being in 5E, I decided to //post Takhisis' original 1E stats for comparison sake (Dragonlance Adventures, 1987).

Amusingly, I was going to add something about this to my last post, and then dropped it. While I am no believer in the idea that there is a better/best way to stat gods, the DLA approach is an objectively WORST method.

I mean, the fiction here is clear, guys. You have a world (Krynn) that contains a theoretical maximum level of 18; you also have gods who physically interact with the setting. It's made EXTREMELY clear in the fiction that breaching the 18-level limit (in the case of Raistlin, being able to channel Fistandantilus/leverage Crysania's power) elevates you from mortal to god-threatening power. This mechanic set is easily dealt with by setting Takhisis at Tiamat (MM1) level power, or just generally maintaining striking distance between deities and capstone PCs... and they elect NOT to do that. Unacceptable by my lights. Again, Krynn should make this easy; the gods are going to be plenty godlike if they end up around L25 while the planet as a whole is stuck at L18 max. The larger point is where to set maximum power levels, at which point a DM needs to look at his/her specific cosmology.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, here's the thing..... Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weiss were the ones who wrote the DL Adventures book, and the novels both....Were I to hazard a guess, my money was on Tracy being the one who came up with Paladine's and Takhisis' stats (as he was fond of complex rules systems).

There was some obvious MacGuffin combat going on for him to have even lasted a single round against her, let alone fight her to a standstill (before bringing her through the portal to Krynn and offing her).

Just to be clear, I think that DL is some of the worst writing I have ever seen, so its poor quality bleeding through to the setting does not surprise me. Apologies for the unnecessary flame.

In all seriousness: I really do believe that an author in his/her right mind would have framed the conflict in Legend of the Twins as between a Wiz25 (Raistlin) and a suitably powered cosmic entity (Tiamat using 1e stats). The fiction actually works out just fine if you roll it from there.

 

[Morrus]

I have no idea how Raistlin ever managed to kill her given those stats. He is listed as a 20th level Black Robe wizard in a setting with a maximum level cap of 18, and has the following stats.

I agree. I have always wondered that. She would kick his ass all over the Abyss... Call it writers prerogative

My impression was that he was 20th level at the end of the Chronicles. By the end of the Legends he'd be much higher, presumably. I know they said they designed him specifically to break the rules.

I'm sure someone must have asked Tracy Hickman or Margaret Weis at some point in the last 20 years, especially with the internet and all. I wonder if it's discussed anywhere?

More curious to me was his 17 INT. In 1E, that means no 9th-level spells for him!

 

[Morrus]

@kalani, @Lord Blackstone, @ruleslawyer -- I thought this was an interesting digression, so this thread is a copy of these same posts in the Tiamat thread. They're still in the original thread, too.

The other relevant plot point was that he had to draw Takhisis to Krynn from the Abyss because she was weaker there. I'm pretty sure I remember it being explicitly called out that he couldn't defeat her in the Abyss.

Plus Crysania was a plot-point -- she acted as some kind of shield, taking damage on his behalf.

I found this from Cam Banks, re. the 3.x version of Raistlin:

Those are the stats for Raistlin as of the beginning of War of the Twins. Ditto Caramon and Crysania and Tas.

It was a choice - those stats, or no stats. Margaret, I think, would really like not to have any stats for "super powered" Raistlin, but we compromised a little and went with a mage who is capable of taking out most of the other wizards of Krynn without a lot of effort. He's more powerful than Fistandantilus, and there's no other mage his equal, although I heartily encourage anybody who doesn't like the stats provided to add a number of epic levels and/or magic items to boost him to taste.

LotT (for 3.x) puts him as:

Raistlin Majere
Master of Past and Present CR 28
Male civilized human wizard 7/wizard of High Sorcery (Black) 7/loremaster 8/archmage 5, Master of the Tower of Palanthas
NE Medium humanoid (human)

Which is somewhat higher than the 1E version. Cam confirms:

It's from the beginning of War of the Twins, the second book, yes. Not from the beginning of Legends. In other words, after Raistlin battles Fistandantilus.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

In one of the original trilogy books, we saw an epic-level cleric get killed by one sword blow. The novels don't emulate the game all that much.

 

[trancejeremy]

Novels and games really don't mix. Trying to understand how something would work in a game as it did in a novel is just a way to drive yourself crazy.

 

[Dioltach]

Wasn't there also something about the other gods coming to Raistlin's aid if Takhisis physically manifested on Krynn?