Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[DarkCrisis]

evil being really evil and good working in brother hood with them... YES, and it should NOT be published in 2022 or 20223.

You aren’t understanding. Good mages don’t help the evil mages. They fight them in the streets when they are doing evil stuff.

But in the towers in their place of learning. There are no sides. It’s neutral ground.

It’s not like the black robes are sacrificing virgins next door to where the white robes are holding class.

It’s a school, your hogwarts as it where. Despite how they act outside the school, inside everyone is there to learn and to teach. To expand the knowledge of magic, which is their religion.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Because old material can often be improved, sometimes by a massive amount, by updating it. I agree that it's possible to go too far, but this whole debate about what Good is in DL shows that there's a lot of room for improvement. Likewise, DL would be better served (I think) with the "White Savior" nonsense removed, with the allegories to Mormonism seriously cut back, and by a frank and deep discussion of what alignment means in the setting and whether or not "Team Good" is aligned with Good at all. And if you want them to be, how to modify, remove, scale back, or improve the problematic stuff.

100% agree

 

[the Jester]

One of the largest disasters in the worlds history is when Good started taking over everything. This can be seen in real world examples as well IE The Crusades.

I think you'd better back away from that example. In no way were the Crusades an example of "Good vs. Evil", it was an example of two cultures and faiths clashing.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Dragonlance as a salable game product in 2022 is a terrible idea. Just take the ideas you like, make a new setting for the modern gamer, and sell that.

I agree... but if they are publishing it... and it looks like they are, it has to change.

 

[Alzrius]

okay i am trying to humor you but ONLY YOU think war is the other side of this not me.

Again, that's the end result of the idea you're putting forward, that Good wizards are bound by their alignment to oppose Evil wizards. That level of "no compromise, only opposition" leads to war.

don't start a war then... but don't work with evil

So you're saying they should just ignore Evil wizard and let them do whatever they're going to do?

if they risk there lives to take the test they are part of 'brotherhood' with evil and has to protect them... no thanks

They don't have to protect them, at least not individually. They have to protect magic as an order, including its practitioners.

except it appears to be what WotC is doing, removing alignment robe restrictions... and class too.

Can you cite a source for that?

nothing... that's the game. Good guys vs Bad guys....

For adventurers, yes. But in terms of world-building it's a little more complicated than that.

but would they once you removed the support of the good guys?

The answer is an unequivocal yes; or do you not think there are evil fighters, evil priests, and evil thieves?

if that was the case then every setting ever is doomed/

I don't know about "every setting ever," but there's a reason why most don't feature an active, ongoing war. Even Greyhawk limited that to a single boxed set (that was more of a board game than anything else) and then ended it to focus more on individual PCs.

evil is BAD... how can we not agree on that!?!?!? Good people don't allow bad people to do bad things.

I agree that evil is bad, but I don't agree with the idea that anything less than a full-throated attempt to stamp out evil isn't Good.

it did many editions and decides ago, I doubt it will going forward.

Maybe, maybe not. But whatever it will be, we're talking about what it could be now.

no it doesn't. Evil people commit more evil then good. an Organization that is empowering magic that allows EVIL people to be themselves and be evil is not good. full stop.
Now maybe some evil slips by and tricks the good orginization... that's fine, but it's not a good organization if it allows it when found. So the white robes are not good.

This is incorrect. The White Robes are as good as they can reasonably be, because they've taken the best option out of the ones that are available to them. The current paradigm does what's best for the greatest number of people, rather than causing mass suffering so they can say that they "tried" to stop evil. "The ends do not justify the means" is a basic tenet of goodness, after all.

that is untrue. if it was true no society on earth could oppose evil when presented, yet WW2 shows otherwise.

If you're going to point to the real world, there are many instances of countries overlooking atrocities and human rights violations by other countries, including contemporary examples. But I suspect you don't want to get into that, lest you get the thread closed.

no... just no. Good does NOT have to let evil be evil. Maybe good can say "we can't stop them" but they can't say "lets help them gain power" or else they should not be called good.

Again, the Conclave is not helping the Black Robes gain power. It's helping to regulate all wizardry, Black Robes and Red Robes and White Robes alike. That by itself is not in contravention with goodness. And in some cases, yes, that means having to let evil be evil, because there's no better option.

When superman says "I can't stop luther" that is okay
When superman says "Since I can't stop luther I will help him build better machines and help lex corp be better at powering up his evil ideas" it isn't okay

Incorrect analogy is incorrect. The situation between the various orders of wizards isn't comparable to that of Superman and Lex Luthor.

If your accepting that amount of evil you are neutral by D*D not good

That's also not right. In fact, I think the entire idea of "good people don't associate with evil people" is strongly suspect. Associating with evil people is how you show them that it's better not to be evil, as opposed to isolating them with other evil people who reinforce their odious ideas. I'm sure if feels good to act self-righteous and say "I'm too good for them," but it's not actually good-aligned.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You aren’t understanding. Good mages don’t help the evil mages. They fight them in the streets when they are doing evil stuff.

except they FORCE GOOD PEOPLE TO RISK THERE LIVES to test for some reason... and people keep saying "it's a brother hood"

But in the towers in their place of learning. There are no sides. It’s neutral ground.

It’s not like the black robes are sacrificing virgins next door to where the white robes are holding class.

but they are more then willing to sacrificing people for evil lols

It’s a school, your hogwarts as it where. Despite how they act outside the school, inside everyone is there to learn and to teach. To expand the knowledge of magic, which is their religion.

 

[Alzrius]

Yes. Because otherwise they'd be condoning the acts of evil.

Sometimes that's the best situation that can be achieved. Not being able to do better doesn't make you not Good.

Evil isn't something like skin color, gender, sexuality, social status, nationality, religious beliefs, etc., that people wrongly discriminate against. It's literally Evil. It's actually going forth and harming people for bad reasons.

Except it's not, in D&D terms, because you can be evil-aligned even without committing any evil acts.

 

[Alzrius]

There is an entire school of Illusion, so I think there is.

I suppose you can debate that, but it depends heavily on which iteration of that school you're using between the editions (and which spells, for that matter).

 

[DarkCrisis]

They can be brothers.

They can be a murderous organization that terrorizes hedgewizards.

They just can't be considered good guys.

How is it murderous? No one is forced to take the test (unless they’ve been abusing magic). You can just not practice magic.

You are basically saying a person has the right to wield the power comic simply because they can. And this Campaign world disagrees. Magic is to powerful not to regulate.

As someone brought up earlier, just look to America and gun laws. Except this is much much worse than guns.

 

[Faolyn]

Dragonlance as a salable game product in 2022 is a terrible idea. Just take the ideas you like, make a new setting for the modern gamer, and sell that.

But then it fades into obscurity and dies. If you think the setting is so bad it deserves to die, that's one thing. I'm no Dragonlance fan, but I don't think it deserves that. Instead, I think that the good parts should be embraced and the bad parts changed to be good so that people newer to the hobby can discover it and love it.