D&D 5E Dragons as Player Characters

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
HUH? Not belittling anyone. Design is indeed not straight forward, but as noted, it's not rocket science. Just look at the rules for how designers create monsters, note the formulas, check out the weights of this or that, and then play-test them to get out the kinks if any. That's what we did to create Nedlog. The fan base today is no less capable of such as BitD, in fact, I'd wager they have many more applied design instances to work from than we did as D&D was not even published by that time. Cheers!
Yeah. I didn't understand the belittling comment, either. My feeling with dragons, though, is that you play them with the understanding that they really aren't going to be balanced against other PCs, but rather the DM has to figure out a way to challenge them in the game.
 

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Yeah. I didn't understand the belittling comment, either. My feeling with dragons, though, is that you play them with the understanding that they really aren't going to be balanced against other PCs, but rather the DM has to figure out a way to challenge them in the game.
Well. To incorporate them as PCs you can always use scaling; it's Fantasy after all, we do have demi-gods and demi-demons and such. Just make it up, that is what's being done with everything in the game. Shrug.
 

Weiley31

Legend
I always liked the idea of the "Main Protagonist of Tyranny of Dragons" being a legit dragon bound in whatever PC race and pretty stuck in that outside of certain "story beats" where a dragon transformation happens or "unlocks" a dragon devil trigger form for hard encounters.
 

Nebulous

Legend
This looks interesting. I would like to run something like this with a whole PARTY of young dragons in a unique setting, not your default Realms or Eberron or whatever. Where dragons are the norm and other races are either very minor or non-existent. Like Planet of the Wyrms. )
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
HUH? Not belittling anyone.
Yeh I see you were wanting to encourage. I think however you under-estimate the difficulty of making something that works well. The vast majority of those gamer hacked together stuff have been historically really poorly done for instance splattered all across a certain wiki is huge amounts of material that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole (now you can say I am belittling if you want). It may well be that people now have better foundations to work off of than they did in the past because designers are presenting an easier to read clearer model than they used to though.

(Also I am certain I wouldn't use anything made by someone whose idea of balance is oh the DM can have more bad guys attack you even if you are more powerful SMH)
 

Yeh I see you were wanting to encourage. I think however you under-estimate the difficulty of making something that works well. The vast majority of those gamer hacked together stuff have been historically really poorly done for instance splattered all across a certain wiki is huge amounts of material that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole (now you can say I am belittling if you want). It may well be that people now have better foundations to work off of than they did in the past because designers are presenting an easier to read clearer model than they used to though.

(Also I am certain I wouldn't use anything made by someone whose idea of balance is oh the DM can have more bad guys attack you even if you are more powerful SMH)
Design either works or it doesn't. Most of it is numerics, what we call balance is more often connected to that as the base-line, so it really comes down to scale in this (current topic) instance. Understanding (intuitively, even) through engagement with the system of how the numeric weights are applied within it becomes the most paramount measure for affecting add-ons and such. Once you conquer the system's numerical balance points then the application of it within abutting streams should become much easier and less hack-worthy.
 

This looks interesting. I would like to run something like this with a whole PARTY of young dragons in a unique setting, not your default Realms or Eberron or whatever. Where dragons are the norm and other races are either very minor or non-existent. Like Planet of the Wyrms. )

It would work well in Eberron, if you focused on the continent of Argonnessen.

As to the write-up here, it might be neat to have a class that got a humanoid "pet", along the lines of the Artificer's iron defender or Ranger's elemental beast.
 

To me, the issue with dragon PCs isnt really about balance. (Though that needs to be addressed before they are used.) But a lore fundamental concept to the mythos.

Dragons get tougher by age. PCs get tougher by experience. This is a massive disconnect in my mind and how I envision a setting in DnD. I could see an entire campaign of dragon characters, but I just cant envision a 20 or 40 year old dragon character reaching level 20.
 

To me, the issue with dragon PCs isnt really about balance. (Though that needs to be addressed before they are used.) But a lore fundamental concept to the mythos.

Dragons get tougher by age. PCs get tougher by experience. This is a massive disconnect in my mind and how I envision a setting in DnD. I could see an entire campaign of dragon characters, but I just cant envision a 20 or 40 year old dragon character reaching level 20.
Well. Just do an RPG, or sculpt the current one based on a magical demi-dragon race. Heck, we've included all forms of sub-humans and demi-humans. Or have some sustaining ritual that the PC must reapply at a certain place or time, a rare alchemical mixture perhaps. Not to trivialize historicity within Game Worlds, of course, to each their own, but in Fantasy (and design) my route is to expand the possibilities and not contract them, so I see myriad "methods" in PC-driven "dragon whatever". Thus good ole Nedlog. :)
 

Stormonu

Legend
To me, the issue with dragon PCs isnt really about balance. (Though that needs to be addressed before they are used.) But a lore fundamental concept to the mythos.

Dragons get tougher by age. PCs get tougher by experience. This is a massive disconnect in my mind and how I envision a setting in DnD. I could see an entire campaign of dragon characters, but I just cant envision a 20 or 40 year old dragon character reaching level 20.
This could be turned on it’s head - mortals age. But what of “immortal” beings. Perhaps humans have it wrong because they don’t understand the magicallity of dragons. They don’t age, they molt. Molting for a dragon is dependent on hoarding - treasure, knowledge, what have you. Dragons get more powerful when they absorb or bind with their hoard. A lucky dragon may molt into a Ancient Wyrm overnight if it happens upon a large enough hoard at once, or a “poor” dragon may remain a baby wyrmling for centuries due to lack of a bound hoard.

I remember Council of Wyrms (which used some of these ideas), but the problem with it was always finding or making suitable adventures - for a party of dragons.

And if power level bothers you, start at something like 5th, and work up to 25th or some such. Not every game need begin at 1st level.
 

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