Dread Necromancer Help...

[Belzbet]

At level 20 it say that a dread necromancer turns into a lich... Does it then gain the template? Such as paralyzing touch and DR 15. Also do you think they get the ability increase (+2 to Cha, Int, and Wis)??

 

[Dandu]

Are there any qualifying statements to the Dread Necromancer's ability?

 

[xigbar]

At level 20 it say that a dread necromancer turns into a lich... Does it then gain the template? Such as paralyzing touch and DR 15. Also do you think they get the ability increase (+2 to Cha, Int, and Wis)??

If it says it turns in to a Lich, then it should get everything that it entails. Normally the abilities a Lich gets would warrant it's cost, but seeing as this is something you wait until level 20 to get, it's appropriate.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

The level 20 ability entry reads:
"Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery."

MM p.317 has the information on the Undead type.

MM p.167 has the info on a Lich. In addition to Undead traits, a Lich gains a +5 to natural AC, gains a 1d8+5 touch attack of negative energy, a paralyzing touch, a fear aura, a +4 turn resistance, DR 15/bludgeoning and magic, Immunity to cold, Electricity and polymorphing, +2 Wis, Int and Cha, and some skill bonuses.

Pre-level 20, the Dread Necromancer gains DR up to 8/Bludgeoning and Magic, Light Fortification up to 50%, a negative energy damage 1d8+(1 every 4 class levels), up to 4/day a negative energy burst that deal 1d4/class level negative energy damage that harms living and heals undead, up to +4 resistance to sleep, stunning, paralysis, poison and disease, a fear aura, an up to 3/day disease touch attack, +4 bonus on saves to resist negative energy effects and Bestow up to total class level negative levels to a target as a touch attack each day (no more than 2 levels with each touch, able to use Spectral Hand spell to touch negative levels at a distance). The Dread Necromancer also gains class abilities that make it incredibly powerful at creating a small undead army on a consistent basis.

With all this said, comparing the Lich Template to all the cumulative abilities the Dread Necromancer receives just by reaching 20, The Dread Necro is quite a bit more powerful on offensive abilities (Negative levels, disease touch) and a little less powerful in defensive abilities (no natural armor bonus, DR8 instead of DR15), but does gain the 50% resistance to crits, as well as a different set of immunities than the Lich template.

I personally would rule that, upon gaining level 20, the Dread Necro gains all the Undead traits and details as stated in the Lich Transformation entry for the class, gains the free phylactery, and does NOT gain the other aspects of the Lich Template, because they are simply a slightly different kind of Lich. The Dread Necromancer is an offensive undead, Able to drop a target 20 levels within 10 rounds at a distance with the assistance of a level 2 spell! Turn out some undead to keep those pesky opponents at bay for a few rounds, than drop an entire party of 4 adventurers 5 levels each, if you so desire, from behind your undead bodyguards. Use your ability to inflict negative energy to heal your own undead, and yourself, at 5hp a round, or if those opponents break through your bodyguards, do 4 bursts of 20d4 negative energy damage in 4 rounds. And add the ability to spontaneously cast from a decently powerful list of offensive, battlefield control and debuffing spells.

I think the offensive power offsets not having an extra +5 AC and 7 more points of DR.

 

[Belzbet]

The level 20 ability entry reads:
"Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery."

MM p.317 has the information on the Undead type.

MM p.167 has the info on a Lich. In addition to Undead traits, a Lich gains a +5 to natural AC, gains a 1d8+5 touch attack of negative energy, a paralyzing touch, a fear aura, a +4 turn resistance, DR 15/bludgeoning and magic, Immunity to cold, Electricity and polymorphing, +2 Wis, Int and Cha, and some skill bonuses.

Pre-level 20, the Dread Necromancer gains DR up to 8/Bludgeoning and Magic, Light Fortification up to 50%, a negative energy damage 1d8+(1 every 4 class levels), up to 4/day a negative energy burst that deal 1d4/class level negative energy damage that harms living and heals undead, up to +4 resistance to sleep, stunning, paralysis, poison and disease, a fear aura, an up to 3/day disease touch attack, +4 bonus on saves to resist negative energy effects and Bestow up to total class level negative levels to a target as a touch attack each day (no more than 2 levels with each touch, able to use Spectral Hand spell to touch negative levels at a distance). The Dread Necromancer also gains class abilities that make it incredibly powerful at creating a small undead army on a consistent basis.

With all this said, comparing the Lich Template to all the cumulative abilities the Dread Necromancer receives just by reaching 20, The Dread Necro is quite a bit more powerful on offensive abilities (Negative levels, disease touch) and a little less powerful in defensive abilities (no natural armor bonus, DR8 instead of DR15), but does gain the 50% resistance to crits, as well as a different set of immunities than the Lich template.

I personally would rule that, upon gaining level 20, the Dread Necro gains all the Undead traits and details as stated in the Lich Transformation entry for the class, gains the free phylactery, and does NOT gain the other aspects of the Lich Template, because they are simply a slightly different kind of Lich. The Dread Necromancer is an offensive undead, Able to drop a target 20 levels within 10 rounds at a distance with the assistance of a level 2 spell! Turn out some undead to keep those pesky opponents at bay for a few rounds, than drop an entire party of 4 adventurers 5 levels each, if you so desire, from behind your undead bodyguards. Use your ability to inflict negative energy to heal your own undead, and yourself, at 5hp a round, or if those opponents break through your bodyguards, do 4 bursts of 20d4 negative energy damage in 4 rounds. And add the ability to spontaneously cast from a decently powerful list of offensive, battlefield control and debuffing spells.

I think the offensive power offsets not having an extra +5 AC and 7 more points of DR.

This makes sense and yeah the dread necro does gain many abilites that the normal lich doesnt. Some of them (such as fortification and bonuses to save against negative levels) are completely replaced by the undead traits gained at level 20 (which is why I am thinking it is some sort of progression to full lich including DR 15). They didnt want to give the necro the full undead traits and DR so they dealt it out slowly.

Also a necro is usually a wizard and arguably a wizard has more offensive options than a dread necro. Undead mastery is plain awesome and it is the main reason I like the class; if you want alot of undead minions I think dread necro with undead leadership is the way to go (right now I am currently planning a big castle in the negative energy plane ran by a 20th level dread necro. a cleric of nerull and a feral ogre vampire with levels of hexblade and the cool undead PrC from libris mortis called tomb Warden; they all have undead leadership and both the lich and the necro can cast animate dead and the rest of the enemies will be either followers cohorts or controlled undead it should be fun but it will take some planning... anyway...). Yeah I really like the dread necro and it is awesome that it knows ALL of its spells on its list when it reaches a high enough level top cast those spells and it can prepare spontaneously. But to me it seem like it should gain the DR 15
(at least in terms of the progression they laid out) and paralyzing touch. However the text only says it gains undead traits (and a phylactery).

Also it seems weird to me to give the nerco +2 to wis, cha, and int. After all and like you say they are different type of lichs... And it doesnt say the necro gains the template (after all it doesst get the +4 LA).

So i dont know I think I will give the NPC DR15, and the immunites to cold and elec. and paralzying touch (not the ability increase. I mean if it has the trademark lich body (whatever that is) it seems like it should have the DR and immunites, it already has the touch (if you notice charnel touch is almost exacly like the lich touch except the necro was given scabrous touch, etc to augment it... adding paralysis seems fitting... but ill have to think about it especially since the necro can use charnel touch with spectral hand and the lich has no such ability (since the liches touch is a quasi-natural attack and there is no proviso about being able to use it with spectral hand) so I dont know maybe paralysis is overkill...

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Also a necro[Lich?] is usually a wizard and arguably a wizard has more offensive options than a dread necro.

Yeah, All undeadness aside, the Dredo Necromancer as a caster falls somewhere behind a Wizard and waaaay above a Sorcerer in spells and class abilities. The fact that your spell list is limited, and you don't get the Wizard's bonus feats every 5 levels puts you a little behind the classic Wizard-turned-lich, however if I wanted the sort of character build the Dread Necro provides and I could burn two Wizardy feats to get the ability to bestow 20 negative levels a day, and another two Wizardy feats to control undead better than an evil Cleric, I'd do it.
All the class abilities places it way above a Sorcerer.

 

[Dandu]

All the class abilities places it way above a Sorcerer.

If we accept that the spell list one has access to is a class ability, the sorcerer kicks the dread necromancer's undead behind seven ways to Sunday.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

If we accept that the spell list one has access to is a class ability, the sorcerer kicks the dread necromancer's undead behind seven ways to Sunday.

Well yes, if you're talking about access to diversity of spells, I agree.
However, if your intention is to make a Necromancer that specializes in necromancy spells and abilities, which would be the reason to choose a Dread Necromancer, Than you're better than a Sorcerer in accomplishing that. Dread Necro does miss out on level 0 spells. While the Dread Necro is limited in adding to the spell list (Except for Advanced Learning or Eclectic Learning), the Dread Necro does have a larger list of spells known than a Sorcerer will ever be able to have.
I've no doubt that if one searches all the books, one could find some useful spells for a necromancer build that isn't already on the Dread Necro's list that a Sorcerer can select, and that's what Advanced and Eclectic learning is for. A Sorcerer is a better generalist spellcaster, a Dread Necromancer is, as expected, a better specialist Necromancer.