Drenai -> d20/OGL starting point?

[grufflehead]

Still not got round to a complete cover-to-cover read of all of the Seven Avengers saga, but from the bits I've dipped into I'm now leaning away from running them as the start of a Drenai campaign to the climactic finale. Reason? I see a bit of mileage in other stuff I've got and rather than tag them onto the end I want to use them in the build to the big campaign-defining plot.

- Dark Harbor is good from the point of view of being written specifically for IH so has ready made NPC stats, zones etc. It would probably form a reasonable basis for one of the major campaign cities (Drenan, Gulgothir etc) although it has a few peculiarities that I don't quite see as fitting into 'Gemmel-world'.

- now I've read a bit more of the plot of Song of the Blade I can see a fair bit of potential (having originally discounted it). A few changes but large parts of it should be liftable.

- several Lankhmar scenarios look like they've got suitable bits that could be cherry-picked.

And so it strikes me that running some city based stuff with the odd wilderness trek would allow the players to get familiar with the setting and rules, while getting the PCs up a few levels. Start to foreshadow the events in Legend of the Steel Generals so that it will have more impact when it starts. I'd like to think that with everything I've got a group of 4 PCs might be in low double figures levels by the end of the whole thing, which should be several months worth of play. Not that there's anything wrong with the way the Seven Avengers is pitched but by doing it this way I'd see the characters going from experienced warriors to those talked about in song for their deeds - which is really what Gemmel is all about

One question to throw out to other people contemplating a Gemmel-themed game - what sort of monsters would you feel happy using given they are not really a big part of the books? IH has a quick and easy way of generating 'demons' which are a staple of the books, and Joinings should be easy to do, but otherwise the opposition is largely other PC types. One of the reasons for only using Dark Harbor sparingly is that there are a fair number of encounters with monsters from stock D&D and it doesn't really feel right for this style of game IMO.

 

[SJE]

One question to throw out to other people contemplating a Gemmel-themed game - what sort of monsters would you feel happy using given they are not really a big part of the books? IH has a quick and easy way of generating 'demons' which are a staple of the books, and Joinings should be easy to do, but otherwise the opposition is largely other PC types. One of the reasons for only using Dark Harbor sparingly is that there are a fair number of encounters with monsters from stock D&D and it doesn't really feel right for this style of game IMO.

Essentially Gemmell doesnt go overboard with monster variety in his books. Most opponents are other men. Perhaps evil or wicked men, but still men nonetheless. Bandits, barbarians, tribal swordsmen (like the Sathuli) or deserting soldiers are the basic staple of his initial encounters. These shouldnt be discounted as boring or mundane encounters, as these villains are threats that establish the superlative skills of the Gemmell-PC's over mortal norms. (i.e. Waylander killing the deserters and rapists)

One particular fascination I've noticed in his work is for corrupted or twisted Orders of Knights. Perhaps developing such a group and background for them, including their honour system and or mystic abilities (another favourite of his- the evil warrior/mystic knight) would be a good thing to introduce? They are a threat because they match the superlative skills of the Gemmell PC's but are better resourced/organised.

And last, but not least is the Other. The Monster of the Other World, a physical representation of evil that is completely outside the experience of the characters. Joinings, demons, Windborn, etc- all are far more deadly than any human and usually evil to the core. Except given Gemmells militant Christianity, even they are not excluded from eventual redemption. These creatures are a threat because they are far beyond the superlative skills of the Gemmell PC's with high DR or incredible speed that must be beaten by some innovative tactic or self-sacrifice by the PC's.

So really, a Gemmell campaign is going to have three levels of antagonists in order of ascending challenge rating-

-normal humans
-An evil or corrupted knighthood
-A magical monster.

Also, if you want to preserve the Christian themes of Gemmells universe, then the redemption of one of the villains such that he then joins the heroes for the final battle is a good twist. Portraying that conflict within the personality of the NPC and encouraging the PC's to make it work is the main challenge for the GM for this surprise twist.

SJE

 

[Aus_Snow]

Gemmells militant Christianity

--*snip*--

Christian themes of Gemmells universe

--*snip*--

Really? I honestly hadn't realised. Not that it makes a whole lot of difference to me personally, as I won't be running the proposed campaign (or any other, for that matter) as any kind of Christian mythological metaphor. . . not intentionally, at least.

Still, can't say I ever read that into his fiction. Oh well, never mind.

Hm. Any sources for this, btw?

 

[SJE]

Christian theology is a massive part of the Drenai setting (though given another name) and Gemmells beliefs are ubiquitous throughout all his books. Most of his books also have a distinctive dualist Christian cosmology behind them.

http://members.tripod.com/~Derae/questions.html

See question 9 (and 13 to a lesser extent)

Reply to a question about Jesus' exhortion to pacifism for Christianity-
"No. I do not see Jesus as a gentle pacifist. He was a
rebel and a revolutionary. He took a whip and drove
the money lenders from the temple. I think the 'turn
the other cheek' injunction has more to do with
arguments between friends. If a friend - in anger -
strikes you, then you should turn the other cheek
in order to defuse the situation. But if a stranger,
seeking to rob or humiliate you, strikes you, then
you should - as the Bible also exhorts 'smite him hip
and thigh.' For me the Bible needs to be read as
a WHOLE book. The laws laid down in it are very
harsh. An eye for an eye, a life for a life. Jesus
himself told his followers that he did not come
to change one jot of the law. However, this isn't
the place to pound on about my view of Christianity.
My views can be found in every novel I write."

also from this interview

STAN NICHOLLS: Some of your elites seem to have mythical basis. Is there a religious motif here?

DAVID GEMMELL: You're absolutely right. All of my books have a religious basis. They're essentially Christian books. I'm a Christian and have certain strong views about Christianity. For instance Serbitar, of The Thirty, says 'Why was I made the leader?' Of course he was made leader, because he had the biggest distance to travel. The Bible says 'He who would be first shall be last'.

STAN NICHOLLS: Would you write different books if you weren't a Christian?

DAVID GEMMELL: Yes I would. There is a writer - George G Gillman - who wrote the Edge westerns. Edge is a man who can roll a cigarette with one hand while raping a woman and cutting the throats of several Mexican soldiers. The books are mindless savagery. If I wasn't a Christian, and thought there was some profit in it, I could write similar books. Christianity stops me doing that. I think I would be promoting the cause of evil.

Italics are mine.

Basically when you read a Gemmell book, consider the following-

The Source= God. The Source doesnt ever manifest or apparently do anything. If you call upon it, miracles do not suddenly spring forth. It just is, with no apparent proof of its existence, all your are left with is faith that it exists. Yet true faith in it, despite adversity and heartbreak eventually means that everything will work out.

Evil is real and often personified in an Satan figure. However, the evil in mens souls can still be redeemed and forgiven by the Source- See Waylander for example, or the end of Winter Warriors.

Source priests are essentially promoting a Christian dogma of pacifism and love for their fellow man and as such are the most holy. But, Gemmell believes that in certain circumstances, then Christians should fight evil, even if it means getting their hands bloody with the death of evil men.

The clearest example of this Pacifism vs. Righteous Defence debate is in Waylander between Dardalion and Waylander.

Other examples of Christian allegory which permeate his stories include self sacrifice as the highest virtue, a prophesised Messiah, the martyrdom of saints and the question of following your conscience (faith) or your king.

SJE

 

[SJE]

Really? I honestly hadn't realised. Not that it makes a whole lot of difference to me personally, as I won't be running the proposed campaign (or any other, for that matter) as any kind of Christian mythological metaphor. . . not intentionally, at least.

My view is that intentionally removing the Christian themes from a Gemmell based game would weaken the feel of it. It'd just be another standard fantasy world and Druss would just be a Conan clone. And if Waylander were a PC, he wouldnt be redeemed by Dardalions faith, and his giving up murder and selfishness and reclaiming his soul from the Devil would be meaningless.

Yet its this mix of guilt and faith and love and sacrifice and redemption that defines most of Gemmells heroes. And his universe (based on a Christian worldview) rewards that. Take that out of the game and what would the PC's be left with? Just gold and xps. Gemmells books are so fascinating because they do go beyond material concerns and try to address higher questions.

Basically, if you are trying to emulate the world and style of a Christian author and your take out those very strong elements, then your emulation will suffer for it. In the Stan Nicholls interview above, Gemmell describes what his books would be like without his Christianity- nothing like we would recognise.

SJE

 

[grufflehead]

Essentially Gemmell doesnt go overboard with monster variety in his books. Most opponents are other men.

<snippety snip>

So really, a Gemmell campaign is going to have three levels of antagonists in order of ascending challenge rating-

-normal humans
-An evil or corrupted knighthood
-A magical monster.

SJE

Good, good - we seem to be thinking on the same wavelength then

Of course that might tend to hamper efforts to throw in a variety of opponents, and will necessitate a bit of creativity to stop things getting stale ('oh not ANOTHER half man, half cow joining, we killed 12 of them last session....').

It has been a while since I read some of the Drenai books but I'm on holiday for 3 weeks from next tuesday, so plenty of time to brush up on who does what to who and when over the break

 

[SJE]

Regarding systems that might do a Gemmell-verse game well. (at least for my non-d20 interests of personality mechanics, family connections, king vs. faith, guilt & redemption) then one game might do very well. Its an old game, but one that has just been re-released and seeing it in the shops made me think about it.

Pendragon.

OK, Pendragon is a distintively Arthurian themed game. But, the basic mechanics could be used as well to create a Drenai game.

Essentially the Personality Traits and Passions map well onto the psychological history and beliefs of the Gemmell hero. Family connections and noble courts and tournaments also factor in highly. It has religious beliefs and Christian virtue rewards built in. And the magic system from KAP 4th Ed. is sufficiently Pagan to match a lot of these things. Also it often has heros battling bandits, knights and magical monsters which is what happens in a Gemmell book anyway.

However, its not a perfect fit. More options for the non-Knight PC's need to be developed, and the psychic and demon summoning element needs to be added in. And generally de-arthurianising it and making it grittier and darker in style terms.

But Pendragon could definately be a contender for a Gemmell game.

SJE

 

[Aus_Snow]

My view is that intentionally removing the Christian themes from a Gemmell based game would weaken the feel of it. It'd just be another standard fantasy world and Druss would just be a Conan clone.

*--snip--*

its this mix of guilt and faith and love and sacrifice and redemption that defines most of Gemmells heroes. And his universe (based on a Christian worldview) rewards that. Take that out of the game and what would the PC's be left with? Just gold and xps. Gemmells books are so fascinating because they do go beyond material concerns and try to address higher questions.

I honestly cannot express my disagreement quite sufficiently to get across my precise thoughts on this matter. But I'll try.

*All* of the elements and themes that you mention as being "Christian" of course predate Christianity by a considerable period of time, and have been found in individuals, societies, literature, and faiths other than that one, prior to and concurrently alongside its various highs and lows throughout history.

Basically, if you are trying to emulate the world and style of a Christian author and your take out those very strong elements, then your emulation will suffer for it. In the Stan Nicholls interview above, Gemmell describes what his books would be like without his Christianity- nothing like we would recognise.

While I respect the writer no less for his outspoken faith and beliefs concerning that faith, I actually disagree with him, and (not so) humbly opine that his view on this matter may be somewhat biased and therefore closed to certain possibilities in reality.

*Many* fiction writers are Christian (or Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or whatever else). Very rarely, I'd say, would their fiction be so closely entwined with elements that are singularly the domain of the particular faith in question, as to be rendered utterly altered/ruined/devalued should a person view the works in a different light than that the writer him/herself favours.



Re: Pendragon. . I used to love that game. I probably still would, if anyone was actually interested in playing/running it. On the other hand though, these days I tend to prefer systems that don't mechanically/numerically represent/reward things like beliefs, emotions etc. I'd rather they be the domain of the players' and GM's creative interests and immersion, personally. Hasn't always been that way with me, but yeh, it is now - to a large extent. To each their own though. Pendragon is still an awesome game, that will always have a place in my heart.

 

[SJE]

Well one thing to think about in a Drenai game is what about Gemmells world you want to port over?

To my mind, the actual nations and setting of the game is fairly generic. Much like R.E. Howards Hyboria, you have a civilised central kindgom (Drenai/Aqualonia) bordered by fierce savages (Sathuli or Nadir/Picts) and suspicious easterners of rising power (Ventrians/Shemites) and various Orientals with strange powers. Government types are a mix of feudal, imperial and tribal, so nothing new there.

More interesting is the themes and issues that are recogisable throughout the books, and I think incorporating these themes into your game will help ensure a Gemmell-like feel to the game. Here are the ones I've spotted (other than the militant Christianity subtext)

- Decline of Empire and the rise of a new, more aggressive nation.
- Pagan beliefs/magic vs. organised religion/magic.
- Tribal nations resisting subjugation by Rome analogs.
- Ancient technology/races returning to wreak havoc on a more primitive present.
- the Aging Hero and fear of mortality
- conflict between following your king and your conscience.

Involve these themes and encourage such character concepts from the players like-

- the flawed hero turned reluctant saviour.
- the last honourable knight
- The warrior who gave up violence
- the Magi who meddles with nations
- the Old Soldier
- the Oriental with strange powers
- the half-blood despised by both his peoples
- the Kick-ass, swordmaster Heroine.
- the Priest of the Source struggling with his Faith or temptation.


SJE

 

[Aus_Snow]

Hm. That's actually quite thought-provoking stuff, SJE (not to say your other posts haven't been, btw). Much appreciated!

It's been a while since I've read any Gemmell, and I'll have to borrow a selection of his books off a friend of mine who has them *all* (one of the players-to-be, actually), and soon at that. I used to own a fair few of them myself, but between fire, flood and theft, none remain. (again, cue violins ) Basically, I need to refamiliarise myself with a few aspects.

I like your suggestions for both themes and concepts. Some of them (being nigh on unavoidable) are among those I'd already been contemplating, whereas a few have provided fresh insight.

Oh, and heh. . . I'll be surprised if anyone decides to play a priest/mystic of the Source. Regardless, I've yet to find just the right class and supporting rules for those very priests, anyway. They're being - characteristically, perhaps - elusive.