DriveThruRPG Exclusivity

[2WS-Steve]

I figure this update to the DTRPG website is worth mentioning:

Response to Common Concerns

Can I put these books on more than one computer?

Yes. Absolutely. This is the most common misconception about these products. You may put these book on any computer you own. You do not need to download them more than once either. Simply copy them to the other computer and activate the Adobe DRM on the other computer using the same password.

DriveThruRPG is setting the prices for all publishers

Not true. All publishers choose their own pricing structure. We recommend 30% off normal cover price for new books and 50% off cover price on anything over 6 months old. As you can see most of our books fall into the 50% off category. Different publishers have different reasons for listing their titles on DriveThruRPG.com and therefore different reasons for setting their prices to different levels.

I can’t print this book

We allow UNLIMITED printing. We are currently investigating the ability of users to print at service providers like Kinko’s.

I can’t copy and paste as much as I want

We allow 10 pages copied per 10 days (although some publishers, like Malhavoc, allow for more).

This allows for fair use of character stats, making GM screen materials or creating a spellbooks etc. Let’s also not forget that Paper printed books don’t allow for any copying and pasting at all.

Can these books be “hacked”?

Yes, we realize nothing in an electronic format is “unhackable”. People who want to steal will always find a way. What we hope to do is prevent it from being so easy to do that the honest-minded consumer doesn’t realize they are doing something illegal by sending books (or the text thereof) to their friends.

This makes me much more comfortable since they've now addressed two of my three major concerns--the limited computer registrations and a recognition that off-site printing is desired by a number of customers. Moreover, I like the fact that it's officially on the main website since that indicates DTRPG is willing to incur a legal obligation regarding these promises.

I'd still like to see at least some mention of what plans they have regarding making sure that I'll be able to register my purchases a couple years down the line--if nothing more than a simple "we're looking into that and will have a more detailed answer later".


******
On a side note, since I started this thread:

I understand that the companies and individuals associated are frustrated at some of the personal attacks leveled against them and want to respond.

However, I'm also a bit frustrated by the way it seems that the people who do throw invective and personal insults are the ones getting a response, while the other potential customers who just want to find out how, where, and how long they can use their purchases wait around. Again, though, the new page helps a lot.

 

[BryonD]

However, I'm also a bit frustrated by the way it seems that the people who do throw invective and personal insults are the ones getting a response, while the other potential customers who just want to find out how, where, and how long they can use their purchases wait around. Again, though, the new page helps a lot.

Well put.

And I think THAT is where the claims of dodging questions is coming from.
To me it seems the stuff that gives an excuse to go off about is being used as an excuse to skip the honest concerns.

And I just said this in another thread but....
I have clients that I sometimes think are real jerks. I am ALWAYS polite to them. I'd be a fool to be rude and expect to get another cent from them.

 

[trancejeremy]

Well to be fair, if there is any "name-calling", DTRPG pretty much started it with their press release about being the first "professional" site selling RPGs. And every other company involved with it releasing a press release saying the same thing. (Which is especially inexcusable, because WW knew about RPGNow, having apparently tried to buy it. They just wanted to put them down, apparently)

Also, the thing about multiple computers disagrees with what Adobe says - they say there is a limit of 6. Which for some, wouldn't be enough to last a decade of computer upgrades. And of course, it's always subject to change.

 

[Leopold]

[Edited: try reading the rules on profanity, even "disguised" profanity].

 

[Dana_Jorgensen]

Ok, let's see, so now I'm "avoiding answering" questions just because I haven't been glued to this thread the last 24 hours, lurking to answer Mad Kaiser's questions as soon as he posts them?

That has more to do with the fact that you appear to have simply tried ignoring Mad Kaiser's questions while responding to other posts.

And Dana is definitively stating what DriveThruRPG's policies for publishers are even though she has no affiliation with DriveThru?

Actually, HE has only addressed a single DTRPG policy, because it is a policy mandated by the system requirements of the distribution method used by DTRPG (i.e. forced use of DRM). HE also addressed general service trends for outlets that use content server. At no point did he state that absolute policy for DTRPG, but rather a likelihood.

SOME of your people are a real piece of work.
You want to put words in my mouth, and condescend and insult, but should I dare respond with anything but perfect professional courtesy, whoa! hold on! I'm being elitist and insulting and whatever else.

Sorry, Steve, but you've been insulting us from the first posts you made on behalf of DTRPG by assuming each and every one of us was a person who would listen to you in essence tell us "2+2=5", when we can look at all the facts you're trying to keep silent about and see for ourselves that indeed "2+2=4".

Do you interact with people verbally this way in everyday life or do internet forums just release you to be needlessly rude. Yes I said rude, uh oh how unprofessional (pun intended) of me. The key word though was needlessly.

Hell, yeah. I have to deal with lazy slackers constantly, and often the threat of losing their jobs doesn't motivate the numb bastards even when you make examples of some of them. And asking nicely with them always falls on deaf ears. I throw things at them or draw on their faces when I catch them sleeping on the job, too.

Then why was your company trying to aquire RPGNow?
Why did James turn you down?


Because it's a great company.

Ask James if you want details, I treat business discussions very confidentially.

James gave us his side. To sum up, WW is sold on the myths and legends of Adobe's DRM and he wasn't willing to allow "his baby" to suffer such indignity.

If you can't handle more than 16 publishers at a time, what would you have done to the "additional publisher clients" already selling at RPGNow?

What makes pdf-only publishers so "service intensive" compaired to print-only?

If you do not wish to "aggressively compete" with RPGNow, why do you insist that popular (now former RPGNow) publishers be exclusive?


Hypothetical question so it's moot, but clearly if one were to acquire
RPGNow they would also acquire all the tools to continue to service its publishers.

RPGNow has some nice custom programmed features that let publishers upload and update their own products. We have none of that yet. Manually loading up dozens of publishers products, contracting, setting up payables, etc. does take effort. And since I must be glued to forums right now so as not to be "avoiding" questions, we don't have time for it.

Actually, all uploads and updates are simply uploaded to a plain old FTP server. They are manually checked before being manually moved to the web server at RPGnow. Very little of what you assume is automated on RPGnow really isn't. The paypal payments aren't automated, and while the check output may be partially automated, James still has to sign each and every one.

So all I can say is if James and his two or three other people can handle all that "manual labor" for over 200 vendors on a daily basis AND provide regular customer service WHILE running a full-time brick & mortar store on the side, you people at DTRPG are starting to look like a bunch of slackers.

If you weren't so darn rude I might even answer this, but instead I'll just say "Why is that any of your business?". We made arrangements with publishers such that they and we are happy with the arrangement. End of story.

To pose the most probable answer, the exclusive agreements are to enforce the use of DRM. In the midst of their love affair with DRM, WW has placed absolute trust in it and simply cannot have insecure PDFs roaming the internet and threatening the revenue stream. But that's just an educated guess.

What exactly do you mean by 'properly service'? What services do you offer publishers beyond a check and webspace?


See above

But above you made it pretty clear you don't know what proper services are, what with the assumptions on how RPGnow works.

Couldn't you save everyone much work by removing the questionable and unpopular DRM restrictions?


Why do you care so much that we chose DRM? Why is this any skin off your back? If you think it's a bad idea that will lead to our failure (which it isn't and won't) then rejoice that we shall fail just as you want us to (for whatever reason) and rejoice that RPGNow's sales are up (oh wait that might be because the electronic format for rpgs is getting introduced to more people now, no, no, you're right, it's 100% due to the DRM backlash).

Actually, RPGnow's sales are up since June 6, by some 20%. The backlash has indeed paid off. Allow me to make a suggestion Steve. Give up on trying to defend DRM. It's a losing battle. From now on, just say "it came with Adobe Content Server. We can't do anything about it. Sorry".

You don't need to answer the questions of a lowly 'unprofessional' dog, but your silence will speak volumes for me.


Yeah, yeah, whatever. Man oh man, did I kill your dog or your mother or something? I just don't get the needless rudeness and vehemence.

Steve

Allow me to quote myself from earlier in this very post. 'you've been insulting us from the first posts you made on behalf of DTRPG by assuming each and every one of us was a person who would listen to you in essence tell us "2+2=5", when we can look at all the facts you're trying to keep silent about and see for ourselves that indeed "2+2=4".'

You've already contradicted yourself twice between the vendors supposedly setting their own prices and the backpedal you've done about WW ownership of DTRPG. We have yet to see you acknowledge the problems of using DRM. And you apparently aren't making much effort to pay attention to what people are saying, since the picture you're trying to paint is not the same picture already painted by a combination of you and everyone who has had non-consumer dealings with DTRPG.

That is why we are all annoyed. And at this point, you've been contradicted so many times. You really need to start learning how to properly use the phrase "no comment" and its variants. If you had been using it from the beginning, you'd be in a much nicer place right now.

But then again, given that "All Professional" phrase in the corporate description appearing in numerous press releases, odds are, even if you didn't have all those problems above, we'd still be rude to you. After all, apologies are nothing but lip service when you make no effort to correct the problem, and the Eden press release was issued a day after your private apology to RPGnow over it. The rest of us slighted by it have yet to even hear a peep about being insulted like that. No public apology and no effort made to remove the phrase from further press releases.

 

[The Sigil]

If I may, Steve, even though your post was directed elsewhere, I would like to pose MY answers to your questions.

Why do you care so much that we chose DRM? Why is this any skin off your back?

As a publisher? I don't care what you choose to do. Not my business, not my concern.

But as a potential customer (who spends upwards of $100/month on PDFs), I happen to care a lot because of a combination of factors, though these don't matter to you. What should matter to you is that I am a potential large and frequent PDF buyer who refuses on principle to have anything to do with DRM.

I want to buy PDFs of the stuff you offer on your site. I do not want to buy stuff with DRM. The latter concern outweighs the former for me. So I am stuck in a situation where I want to buy the product you are offering, but I am not willing to agree to the current terms you are offering. As a customer, I am simply asking, "are you willing to negotiate terms?" This is the "sticking point," so to speak, in our potential customer/vendor negotiations.

As such, it makes me VERY interested as to why you chose DRM, because if a way can be found to "negotiate that out of the deal," we can both get what we want. I get PDFs with no DRM, you get my money. You still get full benefits of copyright protection and my solemn promise that I will not go slapping these things on CDs for my friends or uploading them to KaZaA or anything similar.

I want to know why you chose DRM so that I can know if there is room to negotiate or if we are at a fundamental philosophical impasse and therefore I should stop considering spending my money with you. Any negotiation takes this form, does it not? You negotiate until you either find common ground and make a deal, or you find that there cannot be common ground and you cease negotiations entirely. At this point, I still have hope of finding common ground, as I do not yet know there cannot be common ground - and knowing why you chose DRM might be a good way of letting me know one way or the other.

That's why I care. And I would hope that the prospect of a steady $100/month would at least enough incentive to provide a reason to me as to why you're using DRM - i.e., that you would care enough about my reasons to ask me (I've already told you, but I'll repeat it here if you like).

If you think it's a bad idea that will lead to our failure (which it isn't and won't)

As both a publisher and a potential customer, I disagree. I think it is a bad idea. As a publisher, it doesn't matter one way or the other to me.

As a customer... well, let's just say when I hear the above statement, well, it sours "negotiations" somewhat. I have said, "this is a bad idea because of X, Y, and Z" (not here, but elsewhere). I have laid out my concerns. Your response, a curt "which it isn't" - without laying out responses to my concerns OR your reasons for doing it in the first place - is a bit insulting to a potential customer. Again, though, since you weren't giving the curt "which it isn't" to my concerns directly, I'll forgive it for now. Suffice to say I do think you owe potential customers the courtesy of listening to their concerns, responding to the concerns with something other than a shrug, and laying out your reasons.

The only reason I have yet seen offered - it will inhibit piracy - has by and large been shown to be false as it relates to "hard core piracy" and P2P sharing (casual sharing is a different ball of wax). Your potential customers (at least this one) are annoyed that they have responded to your reasons, giving arguments as to why they see these reasons as flimsy and poor, but you have not responded to THEIR concerns in any fashion other than ignoring them or dismissing them outright with no discussion. Again, not good tactics for engendering goodwill in negotiations.

then rejoice that we shall fail just as you want us to (for whatever reason)

As a customer, I want DRM to fail. As a customer I don't want you to fail. But I want DRM to fail more than I want you not to. My hope is that you give up DRM and I get both my desires... DRM fails and you don't. But if you have irrevocably cast your lot/made your bed/insert clever metaphor here with DRM, well, I hope you fail... not because I dislike you, but because I dislike DRM and do not want it to succeed. Ever. It's not you I dislike but "you + DRM" that makes me negative... in the same way that even though 2 is a positive integer, 2 and -5 together are not. You are a +2. DRM is a -5. I want anything less than 0 to fail and greater than 0 to succeed. Please try to separate the two.

To sum up...

From the point of view as a potential customer, this has nothing to do with "you" and everything to do with "DRM." As a customer, I like you. I like your products. As a customer, I hate DRM. Because I hate DRM more than I like you, as long as you insist on bundling yourself and your products with DRM as a "take it or leave it" package, I am forced to hate the package as a whole.

That doesn't mean "I hate you." It's not about you. It's never been about you. It's all about DRM.

Why won't you let go of DRM so I can show you I like you?

From my perspective as a consumer, there's only one reason I can think of for you not to abandon DRM... you're not currently technologically equipped to make electronic deliveries in a non-DRM fashion. Your comment that the choice to use DRM isn't a mistake tells me there's more to it. But I truly, honestly, can't figure out what.

Seriously, please tell me, as a potential customer, why you aren't willing to consider letting go of DRM. I simply do not understand your decision to do so. Really. I'm not being stubborn. I can't figure it out (I have a lot less trouble accepting something I don't agree with if I can at least figure out the other person's logic as to why - provided they have different but not faulty premises from which they reach their conclusion, I can accept that). It doesn't inhibit piracy in the slightest, so usign that is a faulty premise - and as I mentioned, I can't accept faulty premises. It annoys your consumers, and it transfers some of the rights/protections normally reserved by law to me the customer to you the producer. What are you getting out of this that makes it so important? If we have different views, fine - we can stop harping on it - but your position currently seems irrational.

As a consumer, I want to be educated so even if I don't agree with your position, I can understand it. If you prefer, you can send me a private message through the boards; our conversation will be kept strictly confidential.

--The Sigil

 

[PatrickLawinger]

I'm not defending others on this board but yes, as a professional representing your professional company you are held to a higher standard. Whether you think you are justified in responding unprofessionaly to an attack no matter what it may be, by doing so publicly you are presenting the image that your company is not professional at all. I have worked retail and was always taught and expected to be professional with any customer, or mentaly unstable homeless person who wandered into the store for that matter, no matter what comes out of their mouth or how unreasonable or senseless it may be. Lashing back or behaving unprofessionaly in return only diswades those otherwise reasonable customers that might be watching your repsonse from wanting to stick around and do business with you.

I see, so if a customer came into the store and started screaming "This guy just said all of you suck and are idiots for even thinking about buying things here!" you would smile sweetly and nod? I'd calmly call the police and have him hauled out.

People have been putting words in his mouth, and quite frankly been insulting as hell. The best part is, now everyone is wondering where the big publishers have gone and why they aren't answering.

Even better, many of the people being most insulting happen to be the "small publishers" so where is the professionalism there? Oh wait, then you have some of the forum mods posting their own opinions and fanning the flames rather than trying to calm people down and keep the discussions reasoned. Good thing the "big" publishers have their own forums to talk to fans on, because in this environment I haven't seen any posting here lately. I almost wonder if they'll come back.

The way posts here have been worded no matter what Steve said he would be flamed again. Either he answers a post on a message board and has someone then type a response saying "so you mean X" which is then taken by someone else and twisted further until Steve suddenly finds a post on another message board claiming he has said things he never came close to saying. Then again, he could NOT answer, and then get flamed for not answering and having people say "this must mean X" etc. No matter what he does, someone is going to flame him. Yeah, if it were me, I'd be pissed too. Mostly, I would be upset about the words being put in my mouth both here and at rpg.net.

Personally, I wouldn't have gone with DRM, but so what, I am not Steve, I am not running his business, and I don't know all of his reasons. Maybe, if I had the same info he did at the time I would have made the same decision he did. I am quite capable of disagreeing with someone's decision without flaming them for it. Steve happens to be a damn nice, very well-respected person. Frankly, I don't think anyone else could have convinced some of the publishers on his list to dip their toes into the "electronic waters" and for that alone I respect his efforts. If it took DRM to get those publishers on the list then it has served a good purpose for that alone.

I am not really a supporter of DRM, but I do support both DTRPG and RPGNow. I think it is past time for the classic print publishers to start preparing for the future and dealing with the "problems" and potentials created by electronic media and electronic distribution. I am glad someone has taken a bold enough step to entice people that I know have been VERY hesitant into the electronic markets. I have the greatest respect for Steve and what he is trying to do.

I wonder how flame-filled this is going to be when I get back from vacation Sunday ...

 

[BryonD]

I see, so if a customer came into the store and started screaming "This guy just said all of you suck and are idiots for even thinking about buying things here!" you would smile sweetly and nod? I'd calmly call the police and have him hauled out.

That is fair. (Except that posting on a board does have some notable differences against walking in to your place of business, but for arguements sake...)

Would you expect to ever get business from that guy again?

 

[Morrus]

OK, folks, that's about enough of the rudeness and insults. The behaviour in this (and other DRM threads) from various people, including some publishers, is unacceptable.

Because there is still information that Steve can provide to those who ask, I'll be leaving the thread open for now. So, in order to keep it polite, I'll just be handing out week-long bans to those who cross the line from now on.

Some of you are repeat offenders and seem to cause ill-will wherever you go. For those people (and you probably know who you are), the bans will be permanent.

Now, let's get back to the civil discussion at hand.

 

[coyote6]

I would recomend making companies that try BS like this suffer.

I'd rather not; most of 'em make stuff I like, and most of 'em seem like decent enough people. I regret the DRM, for a number of reasons, and I hope they abandon it*; but that doesn't mean I want the companies to suffer any more than they already are.

*Perhaps when SJG has e23 ready, other companies will participate.