DriveThruRPG Exclusivity

[Psion]

Also, the thing about multiple computers disagrees with what Adobe says - they say there is a limit of 6. Which for some, wouldn't be enough to last a decade of computer upgrades. And of course, it's always subject to change.

Jeremy, I think they have pretty safely clarified that this was a default that they did not (to their credit) use.

This was my concern as well. Thank you Steve for clarifying this point. The "response" link should really be added to your FAQ, however.

 

[The Mad Kaiser]

Ok, let's see, so now I'm "avoiding answering" questions just because I haven't been glued to this thread the last 24 hours, lurking to answer Mad Kaiser's questions as soon as he posts them?

SOME of your people are a real piece of work.
You want to put words in my mouth, and condescend and insult, but should I dare respond with anything but perfect professional courtesy, whoa! hold on! I'm being elitist and insulting and whatever else.

All I did was ask questions. The victim routine won't work here.

Do you interact with people verbally this way in everyday life or do internet forums just release you to be needlessly rude. Yes I said rude, uh oh how unprofessional (pun intended) of me. The key word though was needlessly.

Ever hear of the golden rule.

You show a place where I insulted you or put words in your mouth, and I will apologize.

As I've said before we'll release publisher terms when we're ready to take on new publishers and provide them with excellent service.

The fact that your terms aren't available for review is a sign of collusion. Legal collusion, perhaps, but collusion.

Then why was your company trying to acquire RPGNow?
Why did James turn you down?

Hypothetical question so it's moot, but clearly if one were to acquire
RPGNow they would also acquire all the tools to continue to service its publishers.

You use the same software, and you would need to start your own Paypal account. That's it.

RPGNow has some nice custom programmed features that let publishers upload and update their own products. We have none of that yet. Manually loading up dozens of publishers products, contracting, setting up payable, etc. does take effort. And since I must be glued to forums right now so as not to be "avoiding" questions, we don't have time for it.

Uh, no? PDFs are uploaded to an FTP and added manually by Sage. Did you really not know that, or were you lying just there, thinking I was just another lowly fool unworthy of the truth? And once again, the victim ploy doesn't work here.

If you weren't so darn rude I might even answer this, but instead I'll just say "Why is that any of your business?". We made arrangements with publishers such that they and we are happy with the arrangement. End of story.

Well pardon my horrible rudness for challenging your words in front of everyone, but you said you would love to "Debunk Misinformation". Don't volunteer to answer questions when you aren't willing to tell the truth.

Inviting in 20 new publishers and then mishandling their products and presentations and not paying them properly is unprofessional. Foregoing the additional revenue those publishers' products could be bringing us today if we schlepped them in, because we want to be sure we treat them as we would want to be treated, is professional. IMO.


What exactly do you mean by 'properly service'? What services do you offer publishers beyond a check and webspace?


See above

You still haven't answered these questions. A SINGLE HUMAN WITH A PAYPAL ACCOUNT MASS-MAILS ONCE PER MONTH. A SINGLE HUMAN BEING WITH AN INTERNET CONNECTION CAN SERVICE THE ENTIRE SITE. WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU MEAN BY 'PROPERLY SERVICE'? WHAT SERVICES DO YOU OFFER PUBLISHERS BEYOND A CHECK AND WEBSPACE THAT RPGNOW COULDN'T OFFER? WHAT MAKES PDF ONLY PUBLISHERS SO DIFFICULT TO WORK WITH THAT YOU MUST EXCLUDE THEM ONLY?

Couldn't you save everyone much work by removing the questionable and unpopular DRM restrictions?


Why do you care so much that we chose DRM? Why is this any skin off your back?

Can everyone read this? "Why do you care so much". If this isn't absolute arrogance, I don't know what is. There have been literaly hundreds of people complaining about DRM, and your answer is "Why is this any skin off your back". Very professional.

If you think it's a bad idea that will lead to our failure (which it isn't and won't) then rejoice that we shall fail just as you want us to (for whatever reason) and rejoice that RPGNow's sales are up (oh wait that might be because the electronic format for rpgs is getting introduced to more people now, no, no, you're right, it's 100% due to the DRM backlash).

You honestly believe this is all personal attacks against you? You think I want there to be hundreds of disillusioned PDF buyers thinking that all PDFs suck because of your DRM garbage? You think I rejoice when others fail? You honestly believe your site has improved RPGNow sales?

You have belittled independent pdf publishers, stolen publishers from RPGNow with exclusive contracts when you couldn't buy them, lied about STRPG's connection with White Wolf, and now you are the victim of venom, when all we demand is just one straight answer? When DTRPG fails, it will not be DRM's fault, it will be your fault. People have bought more books from RPGNow thanks to loyalty and solidarity, two of many qualities you obviously lack. The fact that you see every deconstruction of your facades as personal attacks, and believe I would rejoice when your site fails, shows me you also lack empathy, but have ego to spare.

I apologize to the administrators if any of this seems rude or heavy-handed, but this is my pure frustration in text-form. I have attempted to gain answers, and instead recieved obvious avoidance followed by haughty snarls. I know this may be difficult for laymen to empathize with, but as an "Unprofessional Publisher", these attacks, half-truths and elisions have been slap after slap in the face.

Once again, with virtual hat in hand, please forgive any percieved rudeness.

[edited for possible overly-rude content]

 

[Henry]

Both Morrus and the mods have laid down the rules, and still people aren't following them. I've just suspended one user for a week. If personal insults and character attacks keep happening, whoever makes them wil also be suspended for a week.

I hate doing it. I honest to GOD, hate doing it. But if people can't be civil, then I have no choice.

Thanks, all. And good night.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

I see, so if a customer came into the store and started screaming "This guy just said all of you suck and are idiots for even thinking about buying things here!" you would smile sweetly and nod? I'd calmly call the police and have him hauled out.

See we actually agree here. I would act calmly and try to understand why he thinks we suck and whether this is a valid complaint. If the response is "Because you are controled by orbital mind control lasers" well then yes I would again calmly call the police if he won't leave. The reaction I wouldn't have is to scream back "No, you suck, and your mother dresses you funny." If there are other custmmers in the store and I behaived calmly they might even have sympathy for me. If I respond angrily in the same manner as the crazy person, then those customers in the store will likey back out slowly in order to avoid dealing with both of us.

People have been putting words in his mouth, and quite frankly been insulting as hell. The best part is, now everyone is wondering where the big publishers have gone and why they aren't answering.

There is nothing wrong with correcting false statements. I have no idea where the Big publishers are but I won't assign any motivation to this.

Even better, many of the people being most insulting happen to be the "small publishers" so where is the professionalism there? Oh wait, then you have some of the forum mods posting their own opinions and fanning the flames rather than trying to calm people down and keep the discussions reasoned. Good thing the "big" publishers have their own forums to talk to fans on, because in this environment I haven't seen any posting here lately. I almost wonder if they'll come back.

I'm sure they will be back eventually. Not everyone here has been insulting, and this remains a great place for all things d20. I have been to publisher forums, and if you want to reach a broad range of people beyond your existing fans, this is the place.

The way posts here have been worded no matter what Steve said he would be flamed again. Either he answers a post on a message board and has someone then type a response saying "so you mean X" which is then taken by someone else and twisted further until Steve suddenly finds a post on another message board claiming he has said things he never came close to saying. Then again, he could NOT answer, and then get flamed for not answering and having people say "this must mean X" etc. No matter what he does, someone is going to flame him. Yeah, if it were me, I'd be pissed too. Mostly, I would be upset about the words being put in my mouth both here and at rpg.net.

Yes Steve is in a dificult situation and he must make a choice about what is the best approach for his company.

Personally, I wouldn't have gone with DRM, but so what, I am not Steve, I am not running his business, and I don't know all of his reasons. Maybe, if I had the same info he did at the time I would have made the same decision he did. I am quite capable of disagreeing with someone's decision without flaming them for it. Steve happens to be a damn nice, very well-respected person. Frankly, I don't think anyone else could have convinced some of the publishers on his list to dip their toes into the "electronic waters" and for that alone I respect his efforts. If it took DRM to get those publishers on the list then it has served a good purpose for that alone.

Many people agree that they would not have gone with DRM, and why Steve went with it is what they are trying to figure out. Some more articulately and calmly like the Sigal than others. As for "If it took DRM to get those publishers on the list then it has served a good purpose for that alone", it seems that this is one of the main points of disagreement between yourself and others here. I respect your opinion, but I am one of those who disagree with it (hopefuly calmly).

I am not really a supporter of DRM, but I do support both DTRPG and RPGNow. I think it is past time for the classic print publishers to start preparing for the future and dealing with the "problems" and potentials created by electronic media and electronic distribution.

I agree that it is time for other print publishers to get involved, and like many others I would be willing to support DTRPG if they got rid of DRM. Of course, one of the problems of electronic publishing that these publishers have to deal with is a rabid hatred many people feel towards DRM.

I am glad someone has taken a bold enough step to entice people that I know have been VERY hesitant into the electronic markets. I have the greatest respect for Steve and what he is trying to do.

I respect Steve for trying to get these people involved in electronic publishing, I disagree that using DRM to bring them in is worth it.

I wonder how flame-filled this is going to be when I get back from vacation Sunday ...

Hopefully with Morrus's warning it won't be flame filled at all. I will personaly miss your presence in this conversation. Have a good vacation.

 

[Dana_Jorgensen]

Also, the thing about multiple computers disagrees with what Adobe says - they say there is a limit of 6. Which for some, wouldn't be enough to last a decade of computer upgrades. And of course, it's always subject to change

Jeremy, I think they have pretty safely clarified that this was a default that they did not (to their credit) use.

This was my concern as well. Thank you Steve for clarifying this point. The "response" link should really be added to your FAQ, however.

Actually, Steve is incorrect and the Adobe FAQ is right. There is a limit of 6 devices if you use Adobe ID. Your purchases are tied into the Adobe ID, which Adobe controls, not DTRPG. Also, the computers you use are registered to this same Adobe ID. Adobe only allows 6 devices, be they desktops, laptops, or PDAs, to be registered to your Adobe ID. DTRPG has no control over this. The file flag which Steve refers to only determines if the PDF can only be used on one of the six devices (the one originally downloading it) or all of them.

The only way to circumvent this is through a system call SuperDistribution, which appears is only available as part of Adobe's own online bookstore. This system allows one user to transfer control of a PDF to another registered user. Once permission is granted, the new user would effectively then be the owner of the PDF, rather like giving away a book or loaning it out. So technically, one person could have multiple Adobe IDs and simply SuperDistribute a file between them.

Upon further review, the use of MS Passport will probably have the same results, since it is simple used to generate an account on Adobe's site for DRM registration purposes, essentially deliverying you into the same device restricted system as the Adobe ID does.

Incidentally, this is the same DRM control model Adobe has been using for the last 3 years.

 

[Dire Bare]

After reading most of this thread, if I had to make decisions on what RPG products I will buy based on judging the politeness and professionalism of companies reps on this thread,

I'll buy PDF's from DriveThru . . .

I won't buy much of anything from Mad Kaiser or any Big Bang products . . .

Oh, I DO make decisions based on the professionalism of company reps. Steve, one more customer for DriveThru . . . Dana and Kaiser, one less for you.

 

[Dana_Jorgensen]

After reading most of this thread, if I had to make decisions on what RPG products I will buy based on judging the politeness and professionalism of companies reps on this thread,

I'll buy PDF's from DriveThru . . .

I won't buy much of anything from Mad Kaiser or any Big Bang products . . .

Oh, I DO make decisions based on the professionalism of company reps. Steve, one more customer for DriveThru . . . Dana and Kaiser, one less for you.

Might I suggest you also start using a company rep's dishonesty or ignorance as well? After all, the DTRPG rep is strongly exhibited being on or the other when it comes to DRM.

 

[Steve Wieck]

Actually, HE has only addressed a single DTRPG policy, because it is a policy mandated by the system requirements of the distribution method used by DTRPG (i.e. forced use of DRM). HE also addressed general service trends for outlets that use content server. At no point did he state that absolute policy for DTRPG, but rather a likelihood.

Dana - apologies for incorrectly guessing your sex.
Going back to your earlier post (quoted below), I don't see any mention of "probably" or "likelihood" or "I would think" just an unequivocal "yes"...

Do the DTRPG vendors have to use DRM?

The answer is yes. Adobe Content Server is the delivery method DTRPG uses to provide the files to the consumer. Adobe Content Server requires the use of Acrobat 6 and DRM.

So I believe you were out of line, yes since you are in no position to announce policies of DriveThruRPG.com and by making such statements you foster inaccurate information.

Besides, as you well know, since we use the same OSCommerce pacakage as RPGNow, we must be able to deliver normal pdfs or any other type of file type.


Sorry, Steve, but you've been insulting us from the first posts you made on behalf of DTRPG by assuming each and every one of us was a person who would listen to you in essence tell us "2+2=5", when we can look at all the facts you're trying to keep silent about and see for ourselves that indeed "2+2=4".


What facts have I been trying to keep silent about?


James gave us his side. To sum up, WW is sold on the myths and legends of Adobe's DRM and he wasn't willing to allow "his baby" to suffer such indignity.


Either James is misremembering the events or you are misinterpreting/misquoting him. James had no idea we were intending to use Adobe Secure Content Server when we spoke about RPGNow back in January of this year.


But above you made it pretty clear you don't know what proper services are, what with the assumptions on how RPGnow works.


So you're saying RPGNow doesn't have tools that allow publishers to enter or modify their own prices and title catalog pages?
And you're aware of what my job entails beyond DriveThruRPG.com and the jobs of everyone else involved? You magically know how we spend our days and whether we really have time to service new publishers as opposed to say making sure the site we just launched is running as fast as possible?





You've already contradicted yourself twice between the vendors supposedly setting their own prices and the backpedal you've done about WW ownership of DTRPG.


Please point out (meaning quote my posts) either contradiction because I am completely unaware of where I have been anything but honest about either one.

Ok, it's out of my system now. Have a good life Dana.

Steve

 

[Steve Wieck]

Apologies

Folks,

My apologies for being out of line in the earlier post (and by earlier post I mean the one answering Mad Kaiser's questions) and by that let me clarify.
Having not been a user of EN World Forums before I mistakenly thought this d20 & Open Gaming Publishers forum was for publishers only (just like the ePublishign forum seems to be?), not one for readers and publishers.
In a publishers-only forum I don't mind giving as good as I'm getting and telling other publishers to mind their own business. In an open forum it's not exactly appropriate, and we at White Wolf always want to be known for our 100% political correct and polite decorum....

Steve

 

[Psion]

Actually, Steve is incorrect and the Adobe FAQ is right. There is a limit of 6 devices if you use Adobe ID. Your purchases are tied into the Adobe ID, which Adobe controls, not DTRPG. Also, the computers you use are registered to this same Adobe ID. Adobe only allows 6 devices, be they desktops, laptops, or PDAs, to be registered to your Adobe ID. DTRPG has no control over this. The file flag which Steve refers to only determines if the PDF can only be used on one of the six devices (the one originally downloading it) or all of them.

The only way to circumvent this is through a system call SuperDistribution, which appears is only available as part of Adobe's own online bookstore. This system allows one user to transfer control of a PDF to another registered user. Once permission is granted, the new user would effectively then be the owner of the PDF, rather like giving away a book or loaning it out. So technically, one person could have multiple Adobe IDs and simply SuperDistribute a file between them.

Upon further review, the use of MS Passport will probably have the same results, since it is simple used to generate an account on Adobe's site for DRM registration purposes, essentially deliverying you into the same device restricted system as the Adobe ID does.

Incidentally, this is the same DRM control model Adobe has been using for the last 3 years.

Interesting.

Steve: Confirm? Deny?

If this is true, it would not look good for your ability to correctly inform the would-be consumers.

Does anyone out there with access to 7 devices want to TEST this? I am tired of claims on either side; the truth is elusive.