D&D General Drow in early D&D

[haakon1]

I do think Valley Elves did one significant thing in the history of Greyhawk. The description of who stole the Cup of Al-Akbar artifact from Ekbir - tall elves who I think either teleported or flew in - sounds to me like Valley Elves stealing on orders from the Mage. Like tot, right?

 

[Azzy]

Drow were not anti-heroes. They were ruthless sadistic villains that worshipped a chaotic evil demon queen.

A common misconception.

First, as far as alignment: "Drow are generally evil and chaotic in nature, though player characters are not required to be so." (1e UA)

Secondly, Lolth is only one cult among many. "The dark elves worship demon lords from the Abyss. The best known example is the worship of the Demon Queen Lolth." (1e D&DG)

So, while drow are generally chaotic and evil and do usually worship demon lords (of which, Lolth gets the most publicity), that was never true for the entire species. They could always be heroes, anti-heroes, or villians.

 

[Orius]

Dragon 72 ....

Spoiler

Valley Elf,
He’s a Valley Elf, Valley Elf,
He’s a Valley Elf . . .
So cool, so fair,
With chartreuse hair, So young, secure --

“Fer sure, fer sure,
like, oh, man, I was really down today,
like, sooo down,
I almost flunked archery today,
I was blitzed totally, it was
wrong. Like, I wore my elven cloak
into the dungeon, y’know, and it got all
grody with, wow, Iike
spider webs and green slime all over it,
like yucko, like
when I saw it when we got out I thought, oh,
gag me with a wand,
it was grody to the max, just psionic, like,
and I had to clean it, oh,
gross me out, man.
Totally awesome. I hate to go in dungeons,
they are so rank, and some of the monsters just like freak me out, man, like wow.
I even saw a fer real monster, like real close up once, and it was really, like, totally
disgusting, barf city man, it was so gross
that I thought, like, Hey, keep away from me, man! Like no way I’m gonna ever even use my sword
on you, I just waxed it, y’know, like
gag me with a mace.”

Valley Elf,
He’s a Valley Elf, Valley Elf,
He’s a Valley Elf . . .

North of Geoff, South of Ket,
By the River Javan wet,
Living with the stubby gnomes,
The Valley Elves do make their homes,

“Sure, totally, y’know, I had a dog, man,
a cooshee, like he was special,
a Gucci cooshee poochie,
he had designer genes, like, really rare,
he was just awesome, but not too housebroken.
I had to clean up after him, and that was like grody, just gross to the rnax, but, wow,
like, no biggie, cuz he was my
dog, y’know, but he’s gone now, totally, see,
I met-the rnage the other day, and, wow, man,
the rnage has got like no,
totally no sense of humor. Like, I made a joke, y’know, I thought it was super,
like, I saw the mage and said like, hey,
we’re in the Valley of the Jolly,
like, Ho Ho Ho, Green Valley Mage,
just like the freakin’ commercials,
but he just looked at me, like wow,
he must have really been out of it, man,
like he was so out of it he threw
one of those, like, meteor swarms at me, it was just awesome, I mean it was just, oh wow man, it was astral, and it missed me and hit my dog,
my designer dog, like,
crispy critter city,
I was really bummed out, really bad like.”

And you wonder why I hate elves?

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I was waiting for someone to post that. That's all I can think of when I hear Valley Elf.

 

[Imaculata]

What strikes me with that is not what it says about drow but what it says fairies: "fairies are good". Our perception of fairies has changed a lot since the 1970s, influenced by earlier folk tales rather than the twee Disneyfication of the fair folk. Now they are generally seen as chaotic, capricious, and sometimes malevolent.

I like how we have gone back to the source of a lot of fey stories with the depiction of fairies in D&D.

 

[Azzy]

I could never take Valley Elves seriously because, like, you know, Valley Girls.

From the pages of Dragon magazine (issue #72).

 

[Yaarel]

Thats what Humans called Moon Elfs, which were a type of High Elf/Eladrin

Apparently GGygax pulled Dark Elfs directly from Norse Döckálfar but used the Shetland dialect Dtrow for the name

From Fairy Mythology, Thomas Keightley (1828)
Döckálfar (Dark Alfs) dwell below under ground, and are unlike them [Light Alfs] in appearance, and still more unlike in actions. The Liosálfar are whiter than the sun in appearance, but the Döckálfar are blacker than pitch."

"Blacker than pitch", refers to the hair color. Elsewhere they are described as deathly "pale". They cannot be in sunlight.

 

[Mind of tempest]

"Blacker than pitch", refers to the hair color. Elsewhere they are described as deathly "pale". They cannot be in sunlight.

wait it was a war between elf blonds and elves with jet black hair, that was the moral difference?

 

[Yaarel]

wait it was a war between elf blonds and elves with jet black hair, that was the moral difference?

Actually, it was a personality difference. The Viking Era believed hair color conveyed temperament.

• Black hair: somber, but can be protective or cruel (Dvergar, Nott: compare melancholy)
• Blond hair: mellow and rational (Alfar, Baldr, Sif: compare phlegmatic)
• Red hair: fiery (Thorr, Loki: compare choleric)
• Gray hair: dissociated (Odinn: compare sanguine)

The main point between the sunray Alfar and the rock Dvergar is, the Alfar are generally helpful, illuminating and informing the world. By contrast, rock is uncooperative and jealously guards its content.

The Alfar correspond to a good meaningful fate that leaves a mark. The Dvergar correspond to an ineffectual fate.

But occasionally, the foul temperament of the Dvergar can prove useful. These particular individuals sometimes gain the nickname "Alfar", ironically. Nicknaming is an important Viking Era custom.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Actually, it was a personality difference. The Viking Era believed hair color conveyed temperament.

• Black hair: somber, but can be protective or cruel (Dvergar, Nott: compare melancholy)
• Blond hair: mellow and rational (Alfar, Baldr, Sif: compare phlegmatic)
• Red hair: fiery (Thorr, Loki: compare choleric)
• Gray hair: dissociated (Odinn: compare sanguine)

The main point between the sunray Alfar and the rock Dvergar is, the Alfar are generally helpful, illuminating and informing the world. By contrast, rock is uncooperative and jealously guards its content.

The Alfar correspond to a good meaningful fate. The Dvergar correspond to an ineffectual fate.

But occasionally, the foul temperament of the Dvergar can prove useful. These particular individuals sometimes gain the nickname "Alfar", ironically. Nicknaming is an important Viking Era custom.

man, this is most informative.
so what would be the red and grey spirits?

 

[Yaarel]

man, this is most informative.
so what would be the red and grey spirits?

Probably, Thorr and Odinn are the red and gray spirits.

Note, the Alfar and Dvergar are a duality, personifying personal fates, namely successful versus unsuccessful, respectively. Specifically, the Alfar women and Dvergar women are the Nornir who personify fate.

It is an interesting question if there is some kind "red elf" and "gray elf". Maybe one could argue fire jotnar versus frost jotnar, albeit that has complications.

 

[Tonguez]

wait it was a war between elf blonds and elves with jet black hair, that was the moral difference?

Czenobog in American Gods gives a speech about how he was called the black god due to his black hair and associated with evil while his brother Belobog has blonde hair is the white god associated with good - Gaiman uses it masterfully to discuss the nature of good, evil, duality and racism.

But importantly it exemplified the deeper roots of brunette v blonde symbolism in European folklore which Yaarel has so insightfully expanded on

 

[Mind of tempest]

Czenobog in American Gods gives a speech about how he was called the black god due to his black hair and associated with evil while his brother Belobog has blonde hair is the white god associated with good - Gaiman uses it masterfully to discuss the nature of good, evil, duality and racism.

But importantly it exemplified the deeper roots of brunette v blonde symbolism in European folklore which Yaarel has so insightfully expanded on

that seems super alien as hair colours does not seem to have to do with any of the stereotypes listed.

 

[Sithlord]

Tell that to every drow PC ever created by a 13 year old at the table/ RA Salvatore

I tell that to them every game and rejoice at their tears. Bwahahahah!!! And then I have the villagers riot at them with pitchforks and torches as they flee the village attempting to escape with their lives! Bwahahaha!!!

but seriously in the era we played and still do. Just being a frown is a death sentence on the surface world because their raids are that brutal.

 

[Hriston]

What the heck is a "Grey Elf"?

In Chainmail, fairies is given as a variant for the elves troop-type. In the Monster Manual, fairies (now spelled “faerie”) are given the name gray elf.

 

[Hriston]

Correction to the above post (I didn't have my MM earlier):

In the Monster Manual, faeries are a subset of gray elves with "pale golden hair and violet eyes" as opposed to the "silver hair and amber eyes" that other gray elves have.

Gray elves are more intelligent, generally better armored, and longer lived than most elves, and those with a 19 Intelligence (or higher) can attain name-level as wizards. They live in isolation from other peoples in the high meadowlands.

Due to the name faerie, I would say that kindred of gray elves originates, in more recent history, from the Feywild, while the more usual type of grey elf shares with it a common ancestry but remained in the Prime Material.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

What the heck is a "Grey Elf"?

 

[Scott Christian]

funny as it may seem now, back in the days of the Elfquest comic I was surprised to see Elfs with beards, that was enough to signal that these elfs were different (never mind them being 4ft tall and riding wolves through the snow!).

View attachment 137674

What a fantastic graphic novel. I think I read those 4 books like 200 times in middle school. The first book, I still say, has a pretty fantastic and enduring plot line.

 

[Scott Christian]

Since this is my era, I can add a bit. When Unearthed Arcana came out 1985, drow had become badass. They were no longer weak fighters as already noted. They were stronger than any other elf, except when sylvan (wood) elves and grugach (wild elves) have VERY high strength (18:90 or higher). They could be unlimited level druids, and same for clerics if female (male clerics were very weak). This reversed with magic-user: male drow were the best M-Us among all elves, though only slightly better than grey elves, and female M-Us were not quite as weak as male clerics. Like all elves, they were unlimited as thieves and had decent level limits for both rangers and assassins. Interestingly, drow got no assassin bonuses, which would have thematic for the era.

Yeah. I remember the drow having like 85% magic resistance or some other crazy thing. And they all had +2 or +3 weapons and armor, that of course, when exposed to sunlight, decayed and were suddenly no good.

 

[Yaarel]

Elves who think they are Corelleon's gift to the world AND Elven kind itself. High and mighty to an extreme

In 5E/Forgotten Realms, those are the Sun Elves(High Elf sub race.)

In my experience, I never go the vibe that Grey Elf et al were arrogant. Mainly they were reclusive.

Maybe the Forgotten Realms made Sun Elf explicitly pretentious and arrogant, but I didnt play FR. And even for the Sun Elf, they came across as trying to reunify the Elves, and this sense were highly tolerant of the diversity.

 

[Azzy]

In my experience, I never go the vibe that Grey Elf et al were arrogant. Mainly they were reclusive.

Yup, I never felt that grey elves were particularly arrogant based on what little lore is written about them. In Greyhawk, the County (later, Kingdom) of Sunndi is predominately human with a significant population of grey elves, dwarves, and gnomes) and ruled by a grey elf. The populace is viewed as unified with narry a hint of elven arrogance.