D&D General Drow in early D&D

[pming]

Drow are the Boba Fett of the D&D universe. I guess that would make the new drow subraces like Jango Fett.

A drow ninja dual-wielding katana light sabers and driving a Lamborghini is as much kewlness as a 12-year old mind can possibly handle.

Ahhh... Synnibarr! Fun system and setting...but absolutely BONKERS-BANANAS-INSANE in virtually every way.
..
Oh, wait. You were talking about AD&D. Whups! I should have caught the missing of the word "Invisible-Antigrav-" before "Lamborghini". My bad.
..
(oh, and fyi...I am NOT KIDDING about the Invisible-Antigrav-Lamborghini's; the Terra Police force use them to hide and spy on the time-stream so they can time travel to before a crime happens in order to prevent it).
..
Synnibarr... it's wacky.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Mercurius]

Ahhh... Synnibarr! Fun system and setting...but absolutely BONKERS-BANANAS-INSANE in virtually every way.
..
Oh, wait. You were talking about AD&D. Whups! I should have caught the missing of the word "Invisible-Antigrav-" before "Lamborghini". My bad.
..
(oh, and fyi...I am NOT KIDDING about the Invisible-Antigrav-Lamborghini's; the Terra Police force use them to hide and spy on the time-stream so they can time travel to before a crime happens in order to prevent it).
..
Synnibarr... it's wacky.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

I wonder what good old Raven c.s. McCracken is up to these days? (Did I spell that right?).

 

[wellis]

Yup, I never felt that grey elves were particularly arrogant based on what little lore is written about them. In Greyhawk, the County (later, Kingdom) of Sunndi is predominately human with a significant population of grey elves, dwarves, and gnomes) and ruled by a grey elf. The populace is viewed as unified with narry a hint of elven arrogance.

I wonder if the issue is that Forgotten Realms really displaced Greyhawk and Mystara, so then perceptions on races invariably got influenced by FR's versions of them, leading most players to reflexively think of the FR version instead of the older versions from Greyhawk.

Like I suspect a lot of newer players wouldn't have really heard of Mystara's shadow elves, for example.

Like honestly, I suspect the OC donut steal drow you often see in homebrew RPGs, or erotica, is based heavily on the Forgotten Realms versions.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I wonder if the issue is that Forgotten Realms really displaced Greyhawk and Mystara, so then perceptions on races invariably got influenced by FR's versions of them, leading most players to reflexively think of the FR version instead of the older versions from Greyhawk.

Like I suspect a lot of newer players wouldn't have really heard of Mystara's shadow elves, for example.

Like honestly, I suspect the OC donut steal drow you often see in homebrew RPGs, or erotica, is based heavily on the Forgotten Realms versions.

you are likely correct for the most part, with some influence from other things they end up hearing about but mostly FR as that is the ruling dark elf mould.
I only know what a shadow elf is because of The Glen's videos, who has decided to freak out about the new drow types for some reason.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I wonder if the issue is that Forgotten Realms really displaced Greyhawk and Mystara, so then perceptions on races invariably got influenced by FR's versions of them, leading most players to reflexively think of the FR version instead of the older versions from Greyhawk.

Like I suspect a lot of newer players wouldn't have really heard of Mystara's shadow elves, for example.

Like honestly, I suspect the OC donut steal drow you often see in homebrew RPGs, or erotica, is based heavily on the Forgotten Realms versions.

If the issue is displacement by a later setting the candidate is not Forgotten Realms, but rather Dragonlance. The "grey elves" of Krynn are the Silvanesti, who are xenophobic, isolationist and arrogant. If D&D ended up with a grey elf stereotype, that's more likely the source. (Particularly since Faerun's Sun Elves don't really even look like grey elves.)

 

[wellis]

Maybe. I kind of get the feeling Dragonlance hasn't been quite as influential, beyond generally making elves super dickish, vs Forgotten Realms and its particular ideas on orcs or drow.

Or perhaps it's better to say Dragonlance's influences are generally in a different area perhaps.

I've noticed even with 3rd party campaign settings, if they have some form of drow, they often worship an expy of Lolth, complete with spider motifs and a matriarchal culture.

And of course, if you're looking at a homebrew setting, dark elves or drow often use Lolth or just use the phrase "Spider Queen" to get around trademarks.

Like it's iconic with them.

What were Greyhawk drow like vs Forgotten Realms drow?

 

[Mind of tempest]

Maybe. I kind of get the feeling Dragonlance hasn't been quite as influential, beyond generally making elves super dickish, vs Forgotten Realms and its particular ideas on orcs or drow.

Or perhaps it's better to say Dragonlance's influences are generally in a different area perhaps.

I've noticed even with 3rd party campaign settings, if they have some form of drow, they often worship an expy of Lolth, complete with spider motifs and a matriarchal culture.

And of course, if you're looking at a homebrew setting, dark elves or drow often use Lolth or just use the phrase "Spider Queen" to get around trademarks.

Like it's iconic with them.

What were Greyhawk drow like vs Forgotten Realms drow?

I am fairly certain the super dickish idea came about long before DL.

I know ever the dunmer of the elder scrolls technically have a lolth mimic but Mephala rather divergent by now, the copying is likely because it is iconic and otherwise you have to start from scratch, it is the same reason dwarves and elves keep happening despite most people really not caring one way or the other about them.

 

[wellis]

I know ever the dunmer of the elder scrolls technically have a lolth mimic but Mephala rather divergent by now, the copying is likely because it is iconic and otherwise you have to start from scratch

Funny about Dunmer, they kind of make me think they're sort of like drow, of perhaps a particular city, who were conquered by a relatively liberal/progressive surface empire that kind of forced them to/was able to mitigate some of the worst abuses of their current culture, and are sort of slowly changing things to be better, even if the [insert diety] priestesses still hold some power.

It's kind of interesting about them.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Funny about Dunmer, they kind of make me think they're sort of like drow, of perhaps a particular city, who were conquered by a relatively liberal/progressive surface empire that kind of forced them to/was able to mitigate some of the worst abuses of their current culture, and are sort of slowly changing things to be better, even if the [insert diety] priestesses still hold some power.

It's kind of interesting about them.

the dunmer are what happens when you have to make a culture of satanic elves work by something other than a micromanaging demon goddess, explaining the nuances of the descendants of veloth is nuts but given they have the god of get good, dark souls and declaring you existence by struggle and murder, the goddess of liminal spaces and egoism and the spider of sex lies and secrets as your starting point thing get odd fast.

plus they seek to reach heaven by violence and are utterly mad but they have a strong culture with an interesting perspective on things less evil because we are evil, hence they remain a popular selected choice.

drow seem flat as it were at least in comparison.

the best races in fantasy have interesting points to what they are and why they are that way.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

In my experience, I never go the vibe that Grey Elf et al were arrogant

Maybe the arrogant elves trope never came from game designers, but from the people playing the elves?