Drow items

[jgbrowning]

Apparantly drow items don't dissolve on the surface anymore. Hrmph!

Here's my arguement for retaining their dissolving effect. I posted it on another board but noone really responded to it, and i know you guys always have a lot to say...


I think the issue here is that players EXPECT to be able to use the Drow's equipment. This expectation is what's causing the problem not the fact that the equipment disintegrates. This expectation is what should change, not the EQ.

Example: Bodak. CR 8. No Treasure. When the PC's kill the bodak they dont expect to be able to tear his head off and use his gaze as a weapon. That doesn't mean that that's cheasy, its just the way the game works. I assume no treasure was taken into consideration when assigning the CR to the creatures in the MM.

As long as the CR's for Drow take into consideration that players aren't going to get to keep any of the EQ, (which is not always true, PCs wont be able to keep it forever, but as long as they are in the underdark it works) the drow's equipment as it currently is is balanced and should not be changed.

You can also sell the items to other underdark dwellers so they do have value, much in the same way that cowrie shells have value, but only to the right buyers. I understand that cowrie shells as treasure wouldn't work as well as gold as treasure (gold being usually more valued universally) but as long as the CR's are made with this consideration in mind i dont understand the need to change the EQ.

Was a complete lack of any treasure taken into consideration when assigning CRs to monsters, instead of whether or not eq a monster possesses is usable by PCs?

From a PC perspective of treasure acquisition, how is a supernatural ability to cast fireball any different than a fireball wand that no PC may ever use? As long as the CR of the monster under both circumstances adjusted according to the "ability to deliver fireballs"? Solely using the eq/treasure arguement leads one to demand treasure from every monster.

Structurally, there seems to be no difference between loading up the bad guys with magic items that the players cant use and loading the bad guys up with supernatural abilites, except in that the players expect, and are disappointed by, the former but not the latter.

i understand items are transferrable and supernatural abilities are not, but the items the drow use are useable by the PCs, provided they are underground, so these items are far from useless.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here.. i just think the reasons that have been stated so far dont seem to be reason enough to change something that, if the CRs are done properly, doesn't appear to be broken. Certain intelligent monsters have justifiable reasons for not having treasure.. they're just not interested in it, is the most common one... so how does making drow eq disintigrate any different than creatures who have special abilities that cannot be used by the PCs as well? As long as the CR represents that fact for both creatures?

thinking a bit about the item creation aspect of drow weapons and i'd make them just as expensive to make as regular weapons and i would price them as regular weapons. I view the disintigration aspect of the weapon similiarly to the "glow" "no-glow" aspect. Most of the time, such information isn't important, but it can be under certain circumstances.

I'd understand the idea that the drow weapons would be cheaper based upon the very magical nature of the drow society, but not based upon the disintigration. The people making the drow equipment are drow and they're making the EQ for use underground (more than likely).

I'd like to leave the EQ as it is, because it adds a wonderful flavor to the concept of the drow and the underdark. The fact that the drow can make such amazing weapons is very useful when they stay underground, but actually hampers them when they decide to go above ground. Kinda like the way the heavy armor of the westerners hampered them when they entered the middle east during the crusades.

what does everyone here think?

thanks,

joe b.

edit: if all my players watched Clash of the Titans and expected to be able to use a medusea's head in the same manner it appears to me we'd have a comparable situation but the other way arround.

 

[Dragongirl]

Maybe I just don't understand, but what does treasure have to do with CR? CR to my understanding is just a tool to help gauge how powerful a group needs to be to defeat said critter. Treasure if any left after it's death, has nothing to do with how hard it is to defeat.

 

[Theuderic]

I agree with you on this matter. Drow equipment in my game still disentegrates.

 

[jgbrowning]

I don't know either... I was hoping someone could explain about how treasure is factored into CR's.

I think they'd kinda have to be to maintain the expected level of magic in order to maintain the expected level of difficulty of a monsters Cr.

But again, i'd like someone to explain it a bit if anyone knows..

joe b.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

I dunno, I always felt the drow's equipment disentigrating was about the ultimate in "I'm the DM and I say so so hahahaha" tactics. It just reinforces the fact that the drow are much kewler than you could ever hope to be, and they're also quite angsty, and did I mention kewl? Damn, what a kewl race.

I don't use drow much, but when I do, I try to make them play by the same rules as everyone else.

 

[boothbey]

I love the drow's melting equipment. But then again I'm a DM. I would assume that the cost to create these items would be less than a standard magic item. Whole reasoning behind them losing powers is they gain some of their magic from the underdark radiation.

Possibly 20% off base price of piwafwi (sp?) the drow cloaks of elvenkind and simple enchanted (+ only) weapons.

As to how equipment affects CR...nooooo clue.

 

[Xarlen]

I always hated the possibility to. It's like 'See that Kewl sword? Or that awesome staff? Well, You Can't Have IT! Nyah Nyah!'.

I mean, true, true, it's a way to allow you to equip badguys with magical weapons and keep them from the party's hands, but that's like having an NPC just pop in and Mord's Disjunction the whole lot of it and pop out.

I remember back in 2e there was even the suggestion that Drow spellcasters couldnt' cast spells anywhere but the Underdark. I hated that. I like spellcasters, and that's just saying 'The only way you can have a drow character is be a Drizzt Clone'.

As for item creation, according to the books, they just set magical items in a room, and the radiation of the Underdark makes it magical. The way I understand this, they just make Masterwork stuff, stick it in a spot where the radiation is strong for about a year, and the magical radiation makes it magical. Atleast, that's how they get +1 items. More Powerful stuff is created.

 

[Fenes 2]

I don't get it at all what treasure has to do with CR. As others have said, CR is how challenging a creature is. Risk vs. reward does not influence it a bit. All that matters for CR is how dificult a creature is to defeat.

I do not buy the whole "expected level of treasure per level" drivel either, since nothing prevents a DM from rewarding a party for defeating a bodak or a drow raiding party - the king could grant them items or titles, or they could sell body parts to a researcher for cash etc.

And I also do not accept that there is a need to prevent the threat of "See that cool staff? You cannot have it, nya nya nya" DMing. I could say that there is a greater need to prevent the "Hey, that bandit we are fighting drinks a healing potion - that is squandering our loot!" mentality some players develop, but all it comes down to is that different groups have different expectations and needs, and most will solve such conflicts as mature beings.

(Just as an aside: Do you blackguards never use unholy weapons, just so that the LG party can use the magic weapon and is not "forced" to destroy it? How is that different from disintegrating drow weapons? Both are usually the best choice for their wielder, and prevent good adventuers from using them...)

All I can say is that IMC, drow gear still loses magical qualities in sunlight (or even disintegrates), and my player know better than to expect a set amout of treasure after each fight.

 

[Henry]

One thing different about this expectation: The PCs CAN use the equipment - there's nothing stopping it! Once you've killed that Drow lackey, you can pick up his short swords, or her mace, or the tentacle staff the high priestess has, and GO TO TOWN ON THEIR VILE BUTTS! The problematic part is after your adventures against the dark elves, you will not be able to keep the weapons any longer. Might as well throw them away like you do six-month-old oranges that sat in the fridge too long.

I as player or DM have no problem with this, for the exact reasons jgbrowning mentions. Consider it as part of the challenge and flavor of the Drow, and move along to the next challenge. I'm not cutting out the dragon's lungs and head just to get his breath weapon, and I don't expect to be keeping that dark faerie crap too long, either.

 

[Psion]

Apparantly drow items don't dissolve on the surface anymore. Hrmph!

Yes, I know. I think the reasons behind this are extraordinarily anal. I find Sean's argument extremely specious. There are tons of creatures that players face that have attack modes that the players don't get to take full advantage of. Calling it "bad game design" is just stupid.

Re-analyzing Sean's two cases:

- The items get a discount and do not count fully towards their equipment alottment. Okay, adjust their CR accordingly.
- The items do not get a discount. Leave the CR the same. Now sure, this impacts the treasure the characters get. So what? A GM can easily compensate for this. There are numerous creatures that have treasure designations of "half" or "double" in the DMG; why should this be considered any different.

I think the issue here is that players EXPECT to be able to use the Drow's equipment.
(...)
Example: Bodak. CR 8. No Treasure. When the PC's kill the bodak they dont expect to be able to tear his head off and use his gaze as a weapon.

Precisely.

I find the drow weapons a flavorful addition to the game that helps highlight the mystery and "dark fey" nature of the drow and I will continue using it.

Incidentally, the Guidebook to Drow has 3e rules for disintigrating items, but they go a little overboard, I think, in that nearly any magic item they make under these rules loses its effectiveness. I wouldn't go that far, but you can just use the rules for weapons and armor and other items you think appropriate.