Drow items

[Fenes 2]

It's not so much what is official - I mean, the only reason you are using it now is because it was official at one point in time - but what makes sense and what is an extremely cumbersome rule, which will create problems if you have players who tend to 'think out of the box'. Drow are now no longer standardly equipped with powerful weapons. Are you giving them out still?

So what do you do when the group uses Bags of Holding and Gloves of Storing to use (at that point in the campaign) unbalancing drow weapons and armour? Send rust monsters at them?

(if people are wondering, I play only 10% of the games, the other 90% I am the DM)

Rav

I told you what I do: My drow are using either MW weapons, GMW, or their weapons are enchanted in a way that the PCs cannot use them. (Disintegrating is one way, plain unholy weapons are another, drow-only weapons a third.) I do not find it sound reasoning at all that the very intelligent drow would fabricate weapons that could easily be used against them by surface dwellers.

And if I have problems with unbalancing items or weapons I simply tell the players that, and I expect them to give me a hand in correcting such a situation. I do not expect them to try to devise ways of getting ahold and keeping such unbalancing weapons.

Sometimes I think simple DM to player communication to solve issues in a game seems to be an unheard of concept, since most "solutions" revolve around in-character actions. What is so difficult with saying: "Look guys, I know I did not think about the bag of holding, my fault, but if you keep those weapons you unbalance the campaign. Please, be reasonable." You can always add: "If you insist, then someone else should DM, the added hassle of dealing with the stuff is too much for me." or "If not, I can always send in a high-level drow raiding party to recover their sacred weapons, but I'd rather not use to such drastic, TPKing measures."

(Does anyone really expect that a player can "beat" a DM that has a backbone, a little imagination and a good grasp on his campaign world? Sometimes the Cow from Space takes the form of the Drow from the Dark.)

 

[Henry]

That would work for the bag of holding, but not the glove of storing...

If the players are that clever, make them keep EXACT track of the amount of time they have the item, and let 'em have it. It's one item, vulnerable to dispel magics and the like, and I'm not one to stifle a player who wants his +3 short sword THAT badly. Players who wish to spend both fortunes and standard actions concealing their hand-held drow equipment in multiple gloves of storing are more than welcome to do so.

It might even be a cool idea to have a party of PCs who carry their weapons around in their gloves, and can produce them on command! Won't change the fact that the clock's ticking when those items are in use.

 

[Fenes 2]

A 5th level fighter armed with +3 sword, +3 chainmail and a +3 shield is a great deal more difficult to defeat than a 5th level fighter armed with ratty clothes and a pointed stick.

That's what treasure has to do with CR.

J

Sorry, I meant "treasure the PCs can keep", not "items the creature uses". The CR of a creature is not influenced by how much treasure the PCs can earn defeating i.

 

[Arnwyn]

It's not so much what is official - I mean, the only reason you are using it now is because it was official at one point in time - but what makes sense and what is an extremely cumbersome rule, which will create problems if you have players who tend to 'think out of the box'. Drow are now no longer standardly equipped with powerful weapons. Are you giving them out still?

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Depends on the situation. Normally, I do equip drow with them (as per FOR2 Drow of the Underdark) - on the RARE RARE RARE occasion I ever actually use drow (... twice in 10 years so far?). For me (as a DM), I don't find it cumbersome. Others might, and they are (obviously) perfectly justified in getting rid of that whole aspect of drow. I can speak for myself only.

So what do you do when the group uses Bags of Holding and Gloves of Storing to use (at that point in the campaign) unbalancing drow weapons and armour? Send rust monsters at them?

*shrug* Then they're smart players. Though I'm not sure what you mean - drow weapons aren't much good sitting in a bag! (And as soon as they're exposed on the surface world, the disintegration process begins - see FOR2.) And if they use them while in the Underdark - good! My Underdark is pretty much a nightmarish world, and they'll need all the help they can get.

Quick Disclaimer:
I don't advocate "bringing back that rule" for 3e. There have been so many changes (some good, some half-baked) that at this point I make wholesale changes based on what's good for my campaign. I don't care what's in the "official" rules.

 

[Psion]

Originally posted by Rav
It's not so much what is official - I mean, the only reason you are using it now is because it was official at one point in time

And because I find the concept interesting, compelling, and plays in well with the concept of Drow. Just like any other idea, new or old, I use it if it is interesting and useful, discard it if it is not.

but what makes sense

This is fantasy. "What make sense" is entirely dependant upon our manufactured reasons for the reality of the world.

and what is an extremely cumbersome rule

I fail to see how it is cumbersome.

, which will create problems if you have players who tend to 'think out of the box'. Drow are now no longer standardly equipped with powerful weapons.

He... you toss out a derision on not thinking out of the box and then in the next sentence blast us for not conforming to the standards? LOL.

So what do you do when the group uses Bags of Holding and Gloves of Storing to use (at that point in the campaign) unbalancing drow weapons and armour? Send rust monsters at them?

I really fail to see how it is a problem. So characters find a way to get the weapons and armor to last a little longer (they still wont be retain magic as the rule is that they need the radiation to maintain their magic). Bully for them. They still won't be a permanent part of their inventory, but the players have used their ingenuity to turn the situation to their advantage. Your argument presumes that the GM is inclined to punish players for being clever, which I am not.

 

[Henry]

One other note: IMO, any duergar (who are familiar with drow equipment) who purchase drow equipment for the same price as a true magic item are idiots. Drow equipment is easily detectable as such (under the original rules), and Duergar knowing that the equipment is that quirky will not likely buy such, unless they plan to use it for immediate raids. After all, they will fade for Duergar just like they would for PCs. I could see selling it for the quivalent of masterwork price (or half that for +1 drow equipment), but not much else.

 

[Ravellion]

Sorry, I meant "treasure the PCs can keep", not "items the creature uses". The CR of a creature is not influenced by how much treasure the PCs can earn defeating i.

NPC treasure = their gear value, according to the rules in the DMG, which even I don't always strictly follow, but that is what we are discussing here is it not? So at least there is a synergy between the two. The DMG also has a passage that says that treasure that can be used by the creature will be used by the creature. Since it doesn't say anything about raising the CR because of this (while it does increase the challenge), it is most likely it must already be factored in instead.

Psion: I think you are well aware of my original intent, and calling me a hypocrite in lesser words does not really add to the argument now, does it?

I am just wondering how you bypass 50% of my original point: Where does all the XP and cash come from to create the
enormous amount of items from?

Fenes 2: I just don't really like the "because the DM said so" approach after I tried to create a world with it's own consistency. The 'it's a +3 sword, but you can't sell it' just doesn't make sense to me, and neither does the 'oops, I made a booboo, please throw the item away or I'll have to TPK you' approach seem at all appealing. Especially if this happens more than once. I wouldn't offer someone else to DM, because before that would happen, I would expect my players to stop showing up if I started threatening them like that.

Cumbersome rule? you've got me there: You are using house rules which I haven't seen statted. But how I would do it, to remain consistent with the system, seems a cumbersome way to do it. Care to say how you do it, to discuss it's elegance, in the House Rules forum?

One more extra point: The 'unusable treasure' schtick is used by me as well (most notably unholy weapons), but for how long can you withhold treasure (basically) from the opponents defeated to the party before one of the 'carrots' is no longer working? A prolonged drow campaign would eventually have PC's falling beneath 'the treasure per PC at level x'. Not necessarily a bad thing, as long as they have got good IC motivations to be there. If used to often and too long, it might seem to some players (and some of us DM's don't ahve choice in their players, since we have minmaxing powergaming RL friends) that they are stuck in a rut.

Rav

 

[Ravellion]

One other note: IMO, any duergar (who are familiar with drow equipment) who purchase drow equipment for the same price as a true magic item are idiots. Drow equipment is easily detectable as such (under the original rules), and Duergar knowing that the equipment is that quirky will not likely buy such, unless they plan to use it for immediate raids. After all, they will fade for Duergar just like they would for PCs. I could see selling it for the quivalent of masterwork price (or half that for +1 drow equipment), but not much else.

And what about a rival drow city?

Oh, one more thing: I am going on Drow information from the 2nd edition FRCS (post ToT) and the 2e MM. I haven't played 1e printed modules, except some Dragonlance stuff.

Rav

 

[herald]

I am just wondering how you bypass 50% of my original point: Where does all the XP and cash come from to create the

My opinion. The BOVD provides the best answer for that. Much of the XP would come from captured victims and slaves. Not to mention that Lloth loves to test her little drow, I'm sure that there is plenty of XP in that form.

 

[Fenes 2]

I am just wondering how you bypass 50% of my original point: Where does all the XP and cash come from to create the
enormous amount of items from?

Fenes 2: I just don't really like the "because the DM said so" approach after I tried to create a world with it's own consistency. The 'it's a +3 sword, but you can't sell it' just doesn't make sense to me, and neither does the 'oops, I made a booboo, please throw the item away or I'll have to TPK you' approach seem at all appealing. Especially if this happens more than once. I wouldn't offer someone else to DM, because before that would happen, I would expect my players to stop showing up if I started threatening them like that.

<Snip>

One more extra point: The 'unusable treasure' schtick is used by me as well (most notably unholy weapons), but for how long can you withhold treasure (basically) from the opponents defeated to the party before one of the 'carrots' is no longer working? A prolonged drow campaign would eventually have PC's falling beneath 'the treasure per PC at level x'. Not necessarily a bad thing, as long as they have got good IC motivations to be there. If used to often and too long, it might seem to some players (and some of us DM's don't ahve choice in their players, since we have minmaxing powergaming RL friends) that they are stuck in a rut.

As I have stated, my NPCs do not have that many magic weapon (I run a very magic-light campaign, at level 11 the whole party has less than 10 magic items between 5 PCs), so I use many MW weapons and Greater Magic Weapon buff spells, if necessary.

As far as the "Because the Dm told us so" approach goes: If I ask some consideration from my friends I expect them to give me some slack, since I put hours of work into our weekly campaign. I would not threaten with a TPK, I would sincerly ask if they honestly expect me to DM a campaign I have no fun with just for their sake.

As far as the logical explanation of the +3 sword you cannot use goes: IMC, high-level drow (and only those have magic weapons imc) would use evil weapons, not normal ones, just like my highg-level paladin NCPs would use holy weapons, not normal magic weapons, and they would take extra care not to make those weapons usuable by others (hence the disintegration). I think it is only logical for the paranoid drows.
(As an aside: I have so far only used surface drow, with MW weapons, and a PC did take those and used them without much of a problem other than a drow following him intent on reclaiming her weapons...)

Now I am lucky not to play with powergamers, but even then I have other ways to reward my players than "loot it from the bodies of your enemies", namely weapons presented by their gods for their deeds, items that were thought lost and stolen recovered, items rewarded to them by grateful nobles or comissioned items.

What is so difficult about treating drow weapons differently than other weapons? Just amke sure there is enough other, regular loot for your players, should they desire such things.