DrSpunj's Class Balance Spreadsheet

[SSquirrel]

*poink*
*BUMP*

That is all.

Hagen

 

[ouini]

Well, I really like the idea of making a prerequisite into an official feat. I can't say I'm thrilled about making a feat cost five, and then giving a five point bonus for taking the feat -- that doesn't seem very straightforward.

But anyway, I've realized some stuff. (Others may have already figured this stuff out).

Essentially, feats and class abilities are the same thing. Class abilities (like Tireless Rage) are intricately prerequisited feats -- the prerequisites being earlier feats (like Greater Rage), and a certain class level.

Ahh, then the logical conclusion is that, all that most "classes" really are, is a group of related feat-chains and a corresponding set of tables to keep track of when you received earlier feats X and Y in a feat-chain, so you know when it's okay to take feat Z. We were complaining about keeping track of when you get feats X, Y, and Z in a classless system, but I now think it's totally okay, since I'm ditching classes, and that's all classes really were in the first place.

The Solution in buy-as-you-go terms? Simple. The longer you wait to take the next feat in a feat-chain, the cheaper the feat becomes. So buying Rage and Rage 2x at 1st level is inhibitively expensive. If Rage costs 8, make it cost 8 (or more) to buy Rage 2x at the same level, but cost a little bit less if you buy it one level later, and even less if you buy it two levels later, and so on down to a minimum cost after three or four levels.

That's what I'm tinkering with now, DrSpunj, using the feats for Druid, Ranger, Bard, Cleric, and Barbarian as you've described them.

 

[SSquirrel]

But anyway, I've realized some stuff. (Others may have already figured this stuff out).

Essentially, feats and class abilities are the same thing. Class abilities (like Tireless Rage) are intricately prerequisited feats -- the prerequisites being earlier feats (like Greater Rage), and a certain class level.

Ahh, then the logical conclusion is that, all that most "classes" really are, is a group of related feat-chains and a corresponding set of tables to keep track of when you received earlier feats X and Y in a feat-chain, so you know when it's okay to take feat Z. We were complaining about keeping track of when you get feats X, Y, and Z in a classless system, but I now think it's totally okay, since I'm ditching classes, and that's all classes really were in the first place.

The Solution in buy-as-you-go terms? Simple. The longer you wait to take the next feat in a feat-chain, the cheaper the feat becomes. So buying Rage and Rage 2x at 1st level is inhibitively expensive. If Rage costs 8, make it cost 8 (or more) to buy Rage 2x at the same level, but cost a little bit less if you buy it one level later, and even less if you buy it two levels later, and so on down to a minimum cost after three or four levels.

That's what I'm tinkering with now, DrSpunj, using the feats for Druid, Ranger, Bard, Cleric, and Barbarian as you've described them.

I've previously changed various class abilities like Sneak Attack and Evasion into regular feats, so this is no news to me *grin* Maybe what should be done is say ok Rage costs 8 and Rage 2 costs 7 etc. Min cost is 3. So As you advance along a feat chain, the moves get easier as they are just built on the strong foundation you already have. So Whirlwind Attack has 4 feat prereqs. 8-4=4. When you are eligible for WA (base attack +4 and stats of appropriate amounts) it will only cost you 4 points to grab. This would seem easier t odo than say "well Rage 3 should cost you 8 if you buy it at level 2, but if you buy it at level 10 it will only cost you 4, etc. Just have a standard of each level up the chain costs 1 less, minimum cost of 3. Same goes for non combat feats, whatever non combat feat chains there are.

Hagen

 

[DrSpunj]

@ouini & SSquirrel: The problem I have with that approach is that it's not at all unbalancing to be able to, for example, Rage 3x/day right from the start.

Extra Rage is a feat that first appeared in MotW and has been reprinted in the Complete Warrior. It allows 2 additional uses of Rage per day, and the only prereq is that you have the ability to Rage or Frenzy already. I've seen that feat taken as early as 1st level in play, and IMO it wasn't unbalanced at all.

I don't believe Extra Smite, Extra Wildshape, and Extra Favored Enemy (as other examples that appeared in the Splatbooks) have yet been reprinted and/or updated in 3.5, but I don't see real problems with allowing those feats as is IMC (except maybe Extra Favored Enemy now that the Ranger has been powered up vs 3.0, it would need retooling for 3.5 IMO).

Instead, I've adapted something from one of ouini's previous posts and inserted a flat level-based limit in most places. Sneak Attack maxes out at +(Level/2)d6, so while you can take the feat every level, the bonus damage is based upon your character level.

While I'm still tinkering with those limits here and there, here's what I've currently got for the Rage feats:

Rage
Prereqs: Fort save +2
Benefit: PRIME; Allows use of the Rage ability 1x/day. You can take this feat multiple times allowing additional uses per day, but maximum of (1+Level/3) per day.

Rage, Greater
Prereqs: Fort save +6, Rage
Benefit: As the PHB Barbarian's Greater Rage ability.

Rage, Tireless
Prereqs: Fort save +10, Greater Rage
Benefit: As the PHB Barbarian's Tireless Rage ability.

Rage, Mighty
Prereqs: Fort save +12, Tireless Rage
Benefit: As the PHB Barbarian's Mighty Rage ability.

With the level limit for taking Rage at 1+Level/3 the fastest/most you could take it is at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 at which time you'd have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 Rages per day, respectively. Compared to Core you end up potentially getting your extra Rages a few levels earlier (if you take each one as soon as you can) and end up with a potential maximum of 7 Rages/day instead of just 6 as a Core Barbarian, but I'm not worried about that since I've seen Rage in play quite a bit and don't feel Extra Rage is unbalancing as early as 1st level. Obviously, YMMV.

And yes, with limits in place in this system based upon Levels instead of classes (as ouini was alluding to in his last post) you could take Rage twice as early as level 3 (assuming you didn't take it at levels 1 & 2, of course), but I don't think that should necessarily cost more as ouini suggests. In Core that's pretty much like taking your 3rd character level as a multiclassed 1st level Barbarian and taking the Extra Rage feat at that level as well. No big deal to me!

I'll try to email both of you soon with what I've got so far, ouini for early feedback and SSquirrel for that and to host the files again (thanks much, dude! ).

I'm done revamping both Core and AU classes (and pretty much the XPH classes as well) and I've fractured them into separate files for ease of use. I happily, using the values ouini and I both independently came up with, didn't have to alter the Core & AU classes much at all, which was very pleasing. The biggest change (and really the only major one, IMO) I made was to downgrade the Druid from a Full caster to a Half caster, but their Wild Shape abilities are a bit cleaner overall, more versatile and slightly more powerful at later levels.

Thanks for the feedback!

DrSpunj

 

[ouini]

The biggest bang for your buck, far and away, is when you get Rage in the first place. I don't see a problem with Rage 3x/day right from the start, either. That is, it's not unbalancing at first level like having 3d6 of Sneak Attack, or Wild Shape:Large. Allowing a person to take Rage 3x at 1st level, while it shouldn't be as cheap as 1x, is fine, I agree.

So, my having classed it as an ability rather than a feat is just a matter of my not being familiar with MotW's having already named it a feat. It could be either, as could Extra Smite, Extra Wildshape, and Extra Favored Enemy (so long as "extra" doesn't mean "and up the bonus of your 1st Favored Enemy").

However, taking rage 3x all at once when you reach Xth level is goofy (like gaining a level and spending seven skill points to suddenly become an expert weaponsmith). A flat level-based limit for Sneak Attack allows similar goofiness, but isn't mechanically unbalanced. Hey, they're *paying* for it -- it's fair point-wise, just weird. Same for Greater, Tireless, or Mighty Rage. So far, I think I'll stick with making Sneak Attack cost more to buy concurrent, and less the longer you wait for your next die. Same for the Greater, Tireless, Mighty Rage chain, possibly including the Rage 1,2,3x etc. in there for spacers.

This is mostly because I'm lazy, and I'm all about the one rule fits all concept, when it makes the game that much simpler for the players (most of whom are *not* the math-a-holics GMs tend to be). Regular Fighting/non-fighting feats cost a flat rate. What used to be class ability-chains based on level, you can now buy expensively if you want it all at once, or cheaply if you progress slower, as the classes used to. Costs more to progress quicker -- simple concept.

The one hangup I have at this point, is that I haven't taken the plunge to buy the book which explains half- and full-casters. Was that Arcana Unearthed (AU)? I'd hate to sit down and plot out a simple home-rule half-full caster cost system, and reinvent the wheel.

 

[SSquirrel]

The one hangup I have at this point, is that I haven't taken the plunge to buy the book which explains half- and full-casters. Was that Arcana Unearthed (AU)? I'd hate to sit down and plot out a simple home-rule half-full caster cost system, and reinvent the wheel.

Yes Arcana Unearthed. I think you'll really enjoy the book. Very different from core in feel and that's why I'm gonna be running it soon. Granted, I'm using Ken Hood's new Grim n Gritty revision heh.

Hagen

 

[DrSpunj]

However, taking rage 3x all at once when you reach Xth level is goofy (like gaining a level and spending seven skill points to suddenly become an expert weaponsmith).

Which, as you know, the Core rules allow you to do. It's not really any sillier to me than going 19 levels as a Fighter/Rogue and deciding at the end of your career that you're going to pick up all the training that goes a long with being a Wizard to cast some magic at your 20th level.

The system, Core's or mine, handwave's a lot of that silliness away to the background. Too much? Maybe, since there aren't hard-coded training rules built-in like Werewolf has with the check system. Still, it's a level of detail that I personally don't want to force into the game. The rewards, while certainly more realistic, don't seem more fun to me.

A flat level-based limit for Sneak Attack allows similar goofiness, but isn't mechanically unbalanced. Hey, they're *paying* for it -- it's fair point-wise, just weird. Same for Greater, Tireless, or Mighty Rage.

Well, you could certainly save enough points and go from no Sneak Attack to +3d6 sneak attack if you were 5th level (I just realized that formula has to be changed to +(1+Level/2)d6 since Sneak Attack is allowed at 1st level, oops! ) or higher, but it would cost you 5+3+3=11 points. Since I'm handing out 12 pts per level, you ain't gettin' much else that level, so you better really want to do that!

But as you say, they're paying for it by not being able to upgrade their SPs, HD, BAB, Defense, whatever. The Greater/Tireless/Mighty is a bit different, though, because of it being tied to Fort save. Sneak Attack doesn't do that, it's only level-based.

So far, I think I'll stick with making Sneak Attack cost more to buy concurrent, and less the longer you wait for your next die. Same for the Greater, Tireless, Mighty Rage chain, possibly including the Rage 1,2,3x etc. in there for spacers.

This is mostly because I'm lazy, and I'm all about the one rule fits all concept, when it makes the game that much simpler for the players (most of whom are *not* the math-a-holics GMs tend to be). Regular Fighting/non-fighting feats cost a flat rate. What used to be class ability-chains based on level, you can now buy expensively if you want it all at once, or cheaply if you progress slower, as the classes used to. Costs more to progress quicker -- simple concept.

Yeah, the concept is simple, but what about the execution? Show me what you've got, please! I admit, my Feat sheets are littered with Level based formulas that are many & varied, but I wasn't sure what else to do when trying to limit Wild Shape, Rage & Sneak Attack with the same mechanic. Your concept is easy enough, but I'm curious how you mechanically represent the fact that Sneak Attack is okay to take every other level, Rage about every 3rd, and Wild Shape every level from 5th-8th!

The one hangup I have at this point, is that I haven't taken the plunge to buy the book which explains half- and full-casters. Was that Arcana Unearthed (AU)? I'd hate to sit down and plot out a simple home-rule half-full caster cost system, and reinvent the wheel.

Yes, it's all from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. Buy it. It's a wonderful book full of a lot of really good stuff that I'm positive you won't regret paying for. The races, the classes, the magic system, the feat system (Talents, General, Ceremonial), truenames, etc. It's all good, man!

Show me what you've done with your feat mechanics, please!

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[ouini]

I'll work on it today at lunch, and post or email a chunk of it tomorrow, or possibly today. Like I said, though, there will be a huge gaping hole in it, with regards to every type of spellcasting out there, as I don't yet have AU.

EDIT:

The Greater/Tireless/Mighty is a bit different, though, because of it being tied to Fort save. Sneak Attack doesn't do that, it's only level-based.

Well, they're both level-based in core classes. I won't base either on Fort saves, just on relative level.

 

[ouini]

Okay. Everyone knows that characters get a whole lot more benefit at first level (your hit points are maxed out, you get four times as many skill points, better saves, etc.), than at any level which follows. So, in order to create an a la carte point system, one either has to give a lot more points to a character at first level, or each point has to buy more at first level than at later levels. I did a bit of both.
So then tentatively, at 1st level,

FREE:
- Gain +1/2 to your Base Attack Bonus (useless in and of itself)
- Gain 4 Hit Points
- Gain (2+INTMOD)x4 Skill Points
- Gain +2 in one save
- Gain proficiency in a very few select weapons
- Gain 1 feat.

Then, spend or bank up to 30 points:
- 4 points gains you another +1/2 BAB
- Each point gains you another Hit Point
- Each point gains you four skill points
- 2 points gains you +2 in a second save, 4 points gains you +2 in both other saves
- 2 points for proficiency in Shields or Light Armor or Simple Weapons
- - Light Armor is prereq for Medium then Heavy Armor (2 points each)
- - Simple Weapons is prereq for any one sub-class of Martial Weapons (2 points each)
- 8 points gains you a fighter's feat, 4 points gains you a non-fighter's feat
- 4 points gains you an ability in an ability chain.

"Ability chains" are those abilities which used to be assigned to individual classes at very specific levels (Wild Shape, Rage, etc), where each ability was essentially a prerequisite to the next ability. Ability chains look an awful lot like feats (there are "fighting" and "non-fighting" ability chains), but each link in a chain is always strongly related to each other. Something like:

FIGHTING ABILITY CHAINS:
- Rage 1x >> 2x >> 3x >> 4x >> 5x >> 6x ...
(... Rage 4x >> Greater Rage >> NoFatigue Rage)
- Sneak Attack 1d6 >> 2d6 >> 3d6 >> 4d6 >> ...
- Uncanny Dodge (Dex) >> Uncanny Dodge (Flank)
(...Uncanny Dodge (Dex) + Evasion >> Improved Evasion)
(...Uncanny Dodge (Dex) + Fort Save 5 >> DR1 >> DR2 >> DR3 >> DR4 ...)

NON-FIGHTING ABILITY CHAINS:
- Still Mind or Purity of Body >> Wholeness >> Diamond Body >> Diamond Soul >> etc...
- Evasion >> Slow Fall 20' >> Leap of Clouds >> Slow Fall 50'
(...Slow Fall 50' + Improved Evasion >> Abundant Step or Slow Fall Any Distance)

At 2nd level and beyond, you get fewer points to spend, and each point doesn't do quite as much for you.

FREE:
- Gain +1/2 BAB
- Get a d4 to roll for Hit Points
- Gain 2+INTMOD Skill Points
- Gain +1 in one save.

Then, spend (or bank to save up for your next level) up to 18 points:
- 4 points gains you another +1/2 BAB
- 2 points adds 2 sides to your Hit Die type for this level (you have to buy +1/2 BAB to get a d10 or d12)
- 1 point gains you a skill point
- 2 points gains you +1 in a second save, 4 points gains you +1 in both other saves
- 8 points gains you a fighter's feat, 4 points gains you a non-fighter's feat
- 8 points for the first ability in a "fighting" ability chain. If you want the next feat in that chain, it’s
- - 10 points to buy it at the same level
- - 8 points to buy it at the next level
- - 6 points to buy it at the next level
- - 4 points to buy it at the next level or beyond.
- 4 points for the first ability in a "non-fighting" ability chain. If you want the subsequent feats in a chain, it’s
- - 6 points to buy it at the same level
- - 4 points to buy it at the next level or beyond

Obviously, you could easily decrease the granularity of this system by chopping all costs in half, and giving 15 points out at first level, and 9 points out at subsequent levels.

Just as obviously, this sytem does not yet deal with any magical class, as I haven't yet bought AU.

 

[DrSpunj]

Interesting. Some random, initial thoughts...

FREE:
- Gain +1/2 to your Base Attack Bonus (useless in and of itself)
- Gain 4 Hit Points
- Gain (2+INTMOD)x4 Skill Points
- Gain +2 in one save
- Gain proficiency in a very few select weapons
- Gain 1 feat.

That's in addition to the General 1st-level feat that every PC gets, right? What are the limitations on that 1 feat? Can it be either a Fighter Feat or a Non-Fighter feat? What about the beginning of an Ability chain?

I'm starting to work through the Rogue who gets Sneak Attack +1d6 & Trapfinding at 1st level. If I can choose which one is "free" I'm always going to choose Sneak Attack since it costs twice as much as Trapfinding.

FIGHTING ABILITY CHAINS:
- Rage 1x >> 2x >> 3x >> 4x >> 5x >> 6x ...
(... Rage 4x >> Greater Rage >> NoFatigue Rage)
- Sneak Attack 1d6 >> 2d6 >> 3d6 >> 4d6 >> ...
- Uncanny Dodge (Dex) >> Uncanny Dodge (Flank)
(...Uncanny Dodge (Dex) + Evasion >> Improved Evasion)
(...Uncanny Dodge (Dex) + Fort Save 5 >> DR1 >> DR2 >> DR3 >> DR4 ...)

NON-FIGHTING ABILITY CHAINS:
- Still Mind or Purity of Body >> Wholeness >> Diamond Body >> Diamond Soul >> etc...
- Evasion >> Slow Fall 20' >> Leap of Clouds >> Slow Fall 50'
(...Slow Fall 50' + Improved Evasion >> Abundant Step or Slow Fall Any Distance)

First off, I noticed you used a Fort Save prereq for DR. I thought you said you weren't going to do that!

Second, why is Evasion the beginning of a Non-Fighting Ability chain? It's only useful in combat? I could see Evasion, Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge 1 & 2 all being part of a similar Fighting Ability chain, but Monk's only get the former and Barbarian's only get the latter; Rogue's are the only Core class to get both.

- 8 points gains you a fighter's feat, 4 points gains you a non-fighter's feat
- 8 points for the first ability in a "fighting" ability chain. If you want the next feat in that chain, it’s
- - 10 points to buy it at the same level
- - 8 points to buy it at the next level
- - 6 points to buy it at the next level
- - 4 points to buy it at the next level or beyond.
- 4 points for the first ability in a "non-fighting" ability chain. If you want the subsequent feats in a chain, it’s
- - 6 points to buy it at the same level
- - 4 points to buy it at the next level or beyond

When you say "fighter's feat", do you mean only those feats that appear on the Fighter's Bonus feat list? Or do you mean those feats that are only/primarily useful in combat?

And I'm working on the Rogue now, mostly because with his every other level Sneak Attack he seems to get the worst end of these costs. He's stuck paying 6 points for every other level Sneak Attack while a Barbarian gets away with 4 points for an extra Rage/day every 3 levels. I'll post him when I have things worked out.

Obviously, you could easily decrease the granularity of this system by chopping all costs in half, and giving 15 points out at first level, and 9 points out at subsequent levels.

So why don't you? I know you're a big fan of K*I*S*S, so there must be something you feel you'd lose if you cut all the costs in half. Spending 1 point to get 2 skill points doesn't decrease the value of that price/purchase if everything else costs half as much.

Thanks.

DrSpunj