Druid overpowering us all

[Ridley's Cohort]

Fair point, Ridley. However, it does point to a problem, I think: it gives a disadvantage to non-combat forms (such as a rabbit) while giving an advantage to combat forms (such as a bear). Personally, I think wildshape is a lot more interesting when it's used as a flexible tool rather than as a primarily combat-oriented tool.

I certainly agree with your goals. You and Stalker0 may well be correct that it is best not to shift HPs; it just seems more elegant to adhere as closely to the animal in all respects if possible. (I sure ain't looking at this from the powergaming angle; my high Con druid would be losing HPs more often than gaining.)

I personally would like to see druids not morph with equipment but gain access to all the animal's skills, feats, and special abilities of the animals stacked on top of the druid's own.

Furthermore I note a big downside of the wee beasties is that they have their little hit dice, too. The manner HD are tied to skill points and feats favors the combat choices. I think that an 8th level druid should be shifting into an 8 HD Advanced Mouse with the extra skill points and feat enhancing the abilities in the spirit of the base animal.

Unfortunately I can see that even an Advanced Sparrow just isn't likely to escape unsquahed with an effective AC that will top out around 22 (size +4, Dex +3, Dodge +1, Mobility +4). Maybe HPs should be looked at as a separate issue.

 

[Pielorinho]

Ridley, we pretty much play in the way that you describe: they gain all feats, special abilities, and racial skill bonuses. Other skills (climbing, move silently, etc.), we more or less consider learned behavior, and don't grant those.

This becomes a problem when you can transform into shambling mounds and other plants with awesome special abilities. The solution? Don't allow such plants, or adjudicate what's gained on a case-by-case basis.

I do agree that from a rules-elegance perspective, changing HP works better. I tend to place story and spectacle-elegance above rules-elegance, however, and so I'd rather not change the HP.

Daniel

 

[El Ravager]

Druids are somewhat an oddity in that the strength of this class compared to others differs wildly based on the nature of the campaign. In a low money/magic campaign, druids will have a huge melee damage output compared to the groups fighters etc. In a campaign with high starting stats, the fighters get a boost that the druid doesn't. In a high magic campaign, weapons etc will be alot more common that ways to boost a druids damage.

I can attest to this. I played a druid character in an exceptionally high magic campaign and my druid was not terribly powerful by comparison. My wildshape abilities paled in comparison to the fighter's damage capabilities. I even took the prestige class from MotW that specializes in wildshape (the name of the class escapes me at the moment).


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El Rav

 

[Al'Kelhar]

House rules affecting wildshaping

Some house rules I've implemented which have an effect on the munchkinism of the druid's wildshape ability, and similar shapechanging magic:

1) Druids do not know how to wildshape into a creature until they have undertaken field research into that creature, or have received instruction from such a creature (if intelligent). The druid needs to "know what it is to be" the subject creature. Thus, the 5th level druid in my campaign knows only one wildshape - that of black bear. I haven't yet decided how many wildshapes the druid can learn - perhaps equal to the number of wildshapes/day, adjusted by Cha modifier (it's a personality thing, not a knowledge thing), with a minimum of 1 - nor how long it takes to learn a new shape - perhaps 1 week plus 1 day per HD of chosen creature. Choosing a new wildshape is therefore akin to a sorcerer choosing a new spell; much angst and balancing of pros and cons involved. To learn how to wildshape into a plant, the druid must make peaceful contact with an intelligent plant (e.g. treant) and negotiate to study under it; similarly, to learn how to wildshape into an elemental, the druid must make peaceful contact with an intelligent elemental or elemental outsider (e.g. djinni) and negotiate to study under it. [I haven't yet decided how to deal with the wizard and polymorph; maybe similar rules]

2) All equipment in the physical possession of a creature automatically melds with the form of that creature if it changes its type due to a spell, spell-like ability or supernatural ability. Thus, for example, humanoid -> humanoid changes don't result in equipment melding (but see 3) below), but humanoid -> animal do. Creatures which do not change type when changing form, e.g. lycanthropes, have slightly different rules (humanoid <-> hybrid form, no melding; humanoid or hybrid -> animal form, equipment melds; animal form -> humanoid or hybrid form, equipment "de-melds"). Melded equipment becomes non-functional.

A creature which doesn't want its equipment to meld can drop it on the ground, change form, then pick the equipment back up (assuming it can in its new form). However, this takes valauble time in combat, and even if it's done prior to combat, it's pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain that the bear wearing the cloak and carrying the yew staff in its mouth is probably a druid...

3) Magic items which can resize only resize within the size category of the creature they are originally manufactured for. (Sauron's ring is too big for nassty little hobbitsses)

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Dark Dragon]

It seems that the 3.5 druid (along with 3.5 WS) can best a fighter type as soon as he can cast Animal Growth at level 9. The spell now works on a WSed druid, and it works too good, IMO. A level 12 druid fighting as an AGed dire bear WILL tear opponents into pieces. My druid did this with an iron golem and he did it as well with a huge creature with DR 15/adamantine, more than 300 hp and an AC of over 35. Give the druid time to buff himself before a fight (perhaps to summon some animal buddies) and the fighter, ranger, paladin, barbarian can relax and watch.

I like the WS version in MotW: The druid gets all senses and specials of the animal, but hps remain unchanged.

Currently I play the shifter PrC from MotW, using MotW WS. It's very funny, he's good in defense and scouting (and transporting party members ), but in melee combat he's only moderate. The paladin and the barbarian have better chances to hit and deal more damage, as it should be, IMO.

 

[Pielorinho]

Some house rules I've implemented which have an effect on the munchkinism of the druid's wildshape ability, and similar shapechanging magic:

1) Druids do not know how to wildshape into a creature until they have undertaken field research into that creature, or have received instruction from such a creature (if intelligent).

Yikes! One unintended (?) consequence of this rule is that wildshaping becomes even more of a combat trick. If you have severe limitations on the number of wildshape forms you can take, you're probably going to choose forms that are most effective under the most circumstances. For most characters, this is going to mean passing over such cool forms as fish, sparrows, and wolves in favor of the brown bear and/or the tiger.

Again, I'm in favor of some changes to wildshape, but I think those changes ought to deemphasize it as a combat ability (since druids shouldn't outshine fighters in melee combat) and emphasize it as a flexible ability (since that's the kind of fun that only a live DM can handle).

Your second and third rules look good to me, but I would've hated to play a druid under this first rule.

Daniel

 

[mikebr99]

Some house rules I've implemented which have an effect on the munchkinism of the druid's wildshape ability, and similar shapechanging magic:

1) Druids do not know how to wildshape into a creature until they have undertaken field research into that creature, or have received instruction from such a creature (if intelligent). <snip>
Cheers, Al'Kelhar

How do you adjudicate "intelligence" in animals that are limited to 2???

Mike

 

[Darklone]

I for one played with the hitpoints change with Con rule till now... and both druids fear everything that might him change back as hell.

 

[Orm]

Currently I play the shifter PrC from MotW, using MotW WS. It's very funny, he's good in defense and scouting (and transporting party members ), but in melee combat he's only moderate.

The services of Dragon Airways are allways highly appreciated!

 

[Eccles]

In 3.0, the most abusive thing I can find to do to a druid is use all his Animal Companion points for Brain Moles (Psionics Handbook).

Look at it this way - a 10th level druid has 10HD of AC.

That's 40 brain moles in his pockets, hair, etc...

Anyone wanting to fight the druid would have to contend with 40 Mind Thrust attacks per turn, which would make even the greatest wizard into a gibbering vegetable in pretty short order!

Not that I have any intention of doing this, but it'd be pretty darn funny to try it.