Speaks With Stone
First Post
Pielorinho said:
Clearly - I need to by my DM the 3.5 Books. Stuck in 3.0 sounds like a substandard place for my druid. Hmm, maybe I'll hop over to eBay.
Druid overpowering us all
- Thread starter Ricochet
- Start date
Clearly - I need to by my DM the 3.5 Books. Stuck in 3.0 sounds like a substandard place for my druid. Hmm, maybe I'll hop over to eBay.
Darklone
Registered User
Halfling druid. Riding a cheetah and using Call Lightning. The Halforc barbarian didn't catch him.Thanee said:Ah, that druid won't last a single round against a raging power attacking greataxe wielding barbarian with similar lucky dice rolls! A single crit will simply cut him in half.
I tell you, 6th level barbarians, that deal 100+ damage with a single blow are scary!
Bye
Thanee
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
You say that the fighter is a gladiator style fighter--set up with all the int feats (presumably Expertise, Imp Feint, Imp Disarm, Imp Trip, etc). At a guess, I'd say rapier wielder without a very high strength--not exactly a high damage setup for any fighter 7th level or not. The 7th level rogue is set up for dual wielding it sounds like too. If he often gets full attack actions while flanking, then expect his damage to go up dramatically too when he hits 8th level (3 attacks--4 if hasted. A little luck assuring all four hit and that's (assuming no crits and d6 weapons) 24d6 points of damage plus bonusses (maybe 3 (14 str, +1 sword) and 2 on secondary (14 str, +1 sword)) for an average of 95 points of damage). And if he's taking full attack actions instead of sneak attacking, that's his problem dealing damage right there.
Honestly, it sounds to me like the problem is much more that either the other fighters aren't set up to deal lots of damage or they aren't moving to get the sneak attacks they need to compete with such damage. An 8th level fighter/barbarian will quite easily (28 point buy--starting 16 str, 18 after level increases, 22 w/ bull's strength, 26 with rage; wielding a +2 greatsword; with weapon focus and specialization; attacks at +19/+14 for 2d6+16 without power attacking or +11/+6 for 2d6+32 with full power attack. Toss in one crit (which doesn't require rolling nearly as well as the druid) and he deals an average of 117 points of damage in a full attack; haste him as well and that might go up to 156 points of damage.
So, if the "he's evil; we won't adventure with him" solution doesn't work, just toss him up against some foes like that fighter/barbarian. Against the low AC of a wild-shaped druid, he can power attack to his heart's content, and eliminate him quickly. For added fun, allow the Complete Warrior/Sword and Fist feat, Close Quarters Combat and give the fighter that and combat reflexes. When the bear-form druid tries to grapple him with improved grab, he'll take another 23-39 points of damage. And when he tries again on the second claw, he'll get hit again.
Honestly, it sounds to me like the problem is much more that either the other fighters aren't set up to deal lots of damage or they aren't moving to get the sneak attacks they need to compete with such damage. An 8th level fighter/barbarian will quite easily (28 point buy--starting 16 str, 18 after level increases, 22 w/ bull's strength, 26 with rage; wielding a +2 greatsword; with weapon focus and specialization; attacks at +19/+14 for 2d6+16 without power attacking or +11/+6 for 2d6+32 with full power attack. Toss in one crit (which doesn't require rolling nearly as well as the druid) and he deals an average of 117 points of damage in a full attack; haste him as well and that might go up to 156 points of damage.
So, if the "he's evil; we won't adventure with him" solution doesn't work, just toss him up against some foes like that fighter/barbarian. Against the low AC of a wild-shaped druid, he can power attack to his heart's content, and eliminate him quickly. For added fun, allow the Complete Warrior/Sword and Fist feat, Close Quarters Combat and give the fighter that and combat reflexes. When the bear-form druid tries to grapple him with improved grab, he'll take another 23-39 points of damage. And when he tries again on the second claw, he'll get hit again.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
To be honest:
It sounds like your characters are (in the context of causing a lot of damage in a fight) lame.
And in the context of causing lots of damage in a fight, a wildshaped druid is... not lame.
That's pretty much it. You're comparing non-damaging combatants with a damaging combatant and wondering why the damaging combatant does more damage.
It sounds like your characters are (in the context of causing a lot of damage in a fight) lame.
And in the context of causing lots of damage in a fight, a wildshaped druid is... not lame.
That's pretty much it. You're comparing non-damaging combatants with a damaging combatant and wondering why the damaging combatant does more damage.
At the moment Im playing a druid/mage combination, as a lead into theurge (drd3/Mg3/theruge3)
Spell casting wise druids are pretty limited and sucky. They only have a very small number of practicable spells at each level and these only work in very restricted situations.
EG at first level entangle, or faerie fire.
One only works in specific outdoor locations, the other requires a to hit roll and you are a low level character.
Druid second level spells are even worse, and at third they get all lightning but this is a 1rd+1a spell .. which is hell slow, and does hardly any damage unless you are lucky enough to catch a thunderstorm.
The problem with droods is they generally require time, and 3E doesnt give you time. In combat you dont have 5 spare rounds to cast barkskin, animal growth, bulls strength, wildshape and the move into combat, by then the combat is over. Spell casting wise druids really really need to be in forests to compare well to any other class.
The wildshpaing (which I had in a previous character) is interesting but has a few problems.
1) The "broken" type animals are all BIG, now given you can enlarge person the fighter, or polymorph him if you are on the ball this can be equalled by fighters quite easily if you are set up.
2) Large animals need space to move, so again wildshape is non ideal for city combats
3) Animals all have crap ac, sure you can up this with spells, but this takes time, time you dont usually have unless you have time to prepare.
4) Low hp, combined with low acs this can be a real pain.
5) If you DO put all these buffs upyou are smashing up you spells for one combat. The fighter can go all day long, you can manage one combat.. see my point ?
6) Finally if none ofthe above convince you Ill point out that you can place all the spells you cast on your druids on the fighter instead and the fighter will KICK ASS. and he will do it better than any druid who is buffed.
I posted I thread a while back taking a druid and fighter of 12 level and standard ish build. The fighter had better to hit, damage, an ac so high the bear could only hit on a natural 20 and grappled better than the bear. The fighter on the other had would on average have killed the bear shapeddruid in about 4 rounds.
If you find a spell combination makes your caster an uber fighter, try casting it on the fighter instead, because Ill bet my underwear its EVEN MORE effective if you use it as intended. I think 3.5 seems to make people worryingly self centered about their characters own power (not to this group in specific but more of a general comment), when in truth the party can be much stronger if you cast buffs on each other and work together.
Spell casting wise druids are pretty limited and sucky. They only have a very small number of practicable spells at each level and these only work in very restricted situations.
EG at first level entangle, or faerie fire.
One only works in specific outdoor locations, the other requires a to hit roll and you are a low level character.
Druid second level spells are even worse, and at third they get all lightning but this is a 1rd+1a spell .. which is hell slow, and does hardly any damage unless you are lucky enough to catch a thunderstorm.
The problem with droods is they generally require time, and 3E doesnt give you time. In combat you dont have 5 spare rounds to cast barkskin, animal growth, bulls strength, wildshape and the move into combat, by then the combat is over. Spell casting wise druids really really need to be in forests to compare well to any other class.
The wildshpaing (which I had in a previous character) is interesting but has a few problems.
1) The "broken" type animals are all BIG, now given you can enlarge person the fighter, or polymorph him if you are on the ball this can be equalled by fighters quite easily if you are set up.
2) Large animals need space to move, so again wildshape is non ideal for city combats
3) Animals all have crap ac, sure you can up this with spells, but this takes time, time you dont usually have unless you have time to prepare.
4) Low hp, combined with low acs this can be a real pain.
5) If you DO put all these buffs upyou are smashing up you spells for one combat. The fighter can go all day long, you can manage one combat.. see my point ?
6) Finally if none ofthe above convince you Ill point out that you can place all the spells you cast on your druids on the fighter instead and the fighter will KICK ASS. and he will do it better than any druid who is buffed.
I posted I thread a while back taking a druid and fighter of 12 level and standard ish build. The fighter had better to hit, damage, an ac so high the bear could only hit on a natural 20 and grappled better than the bear. The fighter on the other had would on average have killed the bear shapeddruid in about 4 rounds.
If you find a spell combination makes your caster an uber fighter, try casting it on the fighter instead, because Ill bet my underwear its EVEN MORE effective if you use it as intended. I think 3.5 seems to make people worryingly self centered about their characters own power (not to this group in specific but more of a general comment), when in truth the party can be much stronger if you cast buffs on each other and work together.
Majere said:
1) You can enlarge the fighter, this is surpassed by animal growthing the druid. Polymorphing the fighter negates alot of his ac. Situational advantage to either side, depending on circumstances.
2) Reduce animal is your friend. 1 hr/level so can keep it on all day, a tad less damage, same chance to hit, +2 ac, +1 reflex saves.
3) Can also be substantially upped by equipment. Animated shields, wild armour/shields, bracers of armour, monks belt (note: I know they don't all stack ;p) In addition when you're a bit higher level your barkskin lasts a few hours which is decent for a dungeon crawl
4) My group agrees with the interpretation that druids gain hp from the con of their new shapes, so d8 + 4 hp each level (bears), average 8.5 hp per level.. its not really that low.
5) All what buffs? greater magic fang 1hr/level, barkskin 10 min/level. Thats a typical fight for me. Thats 2 spells, and chanecs are they'll be around for multiple battles, so I don't see the issue.
6) You can have barkskin running on both you and the fighter, and magic fang doesn't apply to the fighter (and won't get along with his magic weapons anyway)
Druids aren't meant to replace fighters, but they can do quite a decent job in melee. And then if they need to they can fall back and cast spells, too. Druids strength lies in their versatility.
ParagonofVirtue said:
Not such a big deal as far as I can tell. The druid had 2 critical hits, after all. Since natural weapons only threaten a crit on a 20, that isn't going to happen too often.
Well, a large brown bear's damage for its claws is 1d8+8. That's nice for the level you're at, although an enraged barbarian with a two-handed weapon can easily outshine that. Then again, the barbarian only gets one attack at his best attack bonus. Yes, the 27 Strength is ridiculous to hand out at that level, but personally, my chief problem with the druid is that his allotment of wildshapes per day increases has a ridiculous three-step increase at 5th, 6th, and 7th level. That means that by the time he gains access to large wildshapes, he can pretty much take it for it granted and use that 27 Strength in any tough battle (at your party's level, they should not routinely be getting into more than three tough fights per day).
Just to throw in my hat to the hps don't change argument... my problem with having hp change with form is both teh larger AND the smaller forms.
Before wildshaping into a rabbit was usefull, speedy, dexy, and with tons of hp still... but with the change rule.... and get crushed like.... a rabbit.
This is one of those where I have to go with game balance over realism.
Before wildshaping into a rabbit was usefull, speedy, dexy, and with tons of hp still... but with the change rule.... and get crushed like.... a rabbit.
This is one of those where I have to go with game balance over realism.
