Druid overpowering us all

[Majere]

1) You can enlarge the fighter, this is surpassed by animal growthing the druid. Polymorphing the fighter negates alot of his ac. Situational advantage to either side, depending on circumstances.
2) Reduce animal is your friend. 1 hr/level so can keep it on all day, a tad less damage, same chance to hit, +2 ac, +1 reflex saves.
3) Can also be substantially upped by equipment. Animated shields, wild armour/shields, bracers of armour, monks belt (note: I know they don't all stack ;p) In addition when you're a bit higher level your barkskin lasts a few hours which is decent for a dungeon crawl
4) My group agrees with the interpretation that druids gain hp from the con of their new shapes, so d8 + 4 hp each level (bears), average 8.5 hp per level.. its not really that low.
5) All what buffs? greater magic fang 1hr/level, barkskin 10 min/level. Thats a typical fight for me. Thats 2 spells, and chanecs are they'll be around for multiple battles, so I don't see the issue.
6) You can have barkskin running on both you and the fighter, and magic fang doesn't apply to the fighter (and won't get along with his magic weapons anyway)

Druids aren't meant to replace fighters, but they can do quite a decent job in melee. And then if they need to they can fall back and cast spells, too. Druids strength lies in their versatility.

Some interesting points, but you have completely missed the point of the thread.
The complaint was that druids are unbalanced, too good at fighting and do too much damage. My post was not to destroy druids but to point out that they are actually nicely balanced.
1) Polymorphing a fighter into a firegiant negates none of his ac because he is still humanoid, so he is in the right form to wear his armor. Most people play magic armor resizes because otherwise the game because unplayable when everyone has different ringsizes for fingers Infact the natural ac gain up it.
If you dont and you are organized, have a set of giantsized armor in a bag of holding.
2) The thread is about them doing too much damage which is why I highlighted enlarge animal and not reduce animal. A reduced animal has less Str and the damage dice for his attacks are reduced accordingly.Thus you do significantly less damage.
3) Yes you can and should stack these things, but on the hole you will have an ac in the low 20s and a cr 13 monster will have an attack set in the order of +20/+20/+15
4) Your interpretation is wrong, this is unbalancing the game
5) Your party never gets ambused or attack in its sleep ? Your opponents dont use dispel magic ?
6) Well of course you can, that was MY point

The point is that on the whole classess are pretty well balanced. If druids seem over powering then you are not being set the apropriate challenges of your DM is not playing the opponents intelligently. Most people will know that a big ball of fluff is easier to damage then a full platemailed fighter and target the druid, at which point he will be smacked to almost dead within 3 rounds and he stops looking so over powered and alot more balanced.

 

[anon]

Wizards Answer to HP question

I sent the following email to customer service at Wizards:

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sat 1/10/2004 11:36 AM
To: Wizards Customer Service
Subject: Quick Question on Wildshape


WoTC:

I'm really just looking for a one word answer to the following question:

When a druid Wildshapes into a form which has a different Con score
than her normal score, does her "new" Con score change her HPs?


Yes or No


The case against: Wildshape references Polymorph references Alter Self
which says 'No HP change.'

The case for: Alter Self says No HP change because it does not allow
Ability score changes. Since Polymorph overrides this (allowing
Ability score changes) it also overrides the HP change restriction.

Thanks for your help.

And got the following response:

Subject: RE: Quick Question on Wildshape
From: Wizards Customer Service <custserv@wizards.com>
Date: January 11, 2004 5:42:42 PM CST

Polymorph overrides alter self. Whenever the Con score changes, so too does the hit point total. This means that your base number of HP stays the same, but the bonus to HP from Con changes based on the new Con score.


Thanks!

**Please quote this e-mail in any reply.**
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Darrin
Wizards of the Coast - Customer Service
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Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496
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Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500
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[Darklone]

Could someone please provide a link to the last Custserv answer where they said HP won't change ?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Just to throw in my hat to the hps don't change argument... my problem with having hp change with form is both teh larger AND the smaller forms.

Before wildshaping into a rabbit was usefull, speedy, dexy, and with tons of hp still... but with the change rule.... and get crushed like.... a rabbit.

This is one of those where I have to go with game balance over realism.

Even the littlest of out fuzzy wuzzy friends have a Con 10. If you are playing in a campaign with the stats in the rough range of 25 point buy -- the power range for which the game was supposedly playtested, you may be taking a small hit in HPs or none at all. (I am playing in such a campaign and my druid is the only character with a Con bonus!)

You make a valid point, but I see a certain charm to each form/size having significant plusses or minuses. If I am choosing a Tiny animal, I am probably banking on its Speed and +8 Hide bonus.

If you are in rabbit form, you are either not expecting combat or you were planning on avoiding combat as best you could anyway, right?

 

[Pielorinho]

Fair point, Ridley. However, it does point to a problem, I think: it gives a disadvantage to non-combat forms (such as a rabbit) while giving an advantage to combat forms (such as a bear). Personally, I think wildshape is a lot more interesting when it's used as a flexible tool rather than as a primarily combat-oriented tool.

One wildshape technique that I've used at least once is the wildshape-to-escape idea: when the going gets tough, the tough turn into a sparrow and fly away. If hit points don't change, this can be a fine trick: going from the 17 con of a bear to the 10 con of a sparrow (assuming that's what a sparrow has) won't be a problem.

But a wounded character may be unable to make such a transition, if hit points change. Imagine a 12-level druid with 54 base hit points (before CON adjustment) who's in a form with a constitution of 17: they'll now have 90 hit points, due to CON bonus. Battle's gone against them, and now they're down to 20 hit points and are thinking about getting away. They wildshape into sparrow form, gaining 12 hit points for the wildshape, pushing them up to 32 hit points.

Unfortunately, they immediately lose 36 hit points due to their reduced CON; as soon as they wildshape, they fall down unconscious and begin bleeding to death.

I don't like the idea that that can happen.

That, combined with my preference for wildshaping being a flexible tool rather than a combat-oriented tool, inclines me toward the MotW, hit-points-don't-change version of wildshape.

Daniel

 

[FCWesel]

Wildshaped druids are hell. Usually their only problem is low AC, so power attacking monsters with good AC rip them to pieces. Dragons with bracers of armour +8 and ring of protection +5 for example

I was under the impression such magics do not continue to work once in wildshape, infact there is a special item in MOTW that one can get that allows such items to continue to work once a new shape is taken just for that rule if I am not mistaken.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Well, the dragon is the one with the bracers of armor and ring of protection. And unless it is also a mid to high level druid, it probably wouldn't be wildshaped.

Even if the dragon were also a 5th level druid, I doubt it would want to turn into a black bear in order to engage in combat.

 

[jgsugden]

Could someone please provide a link to the last Custserv answer where they said HP won't change ?

In DECEMBER 2003 I received an email from custserv that confirmed that hit points *do not* change because polymorph incorporates alter self which specifically states that HP do not change.

Unfortunately, I did not save that email. I thought I did, but it isn't in my hotmail account anymore.

Custserv goes both ways on this issue. You'll have to decide for yourself until WotC posts up an article/supplment expanding and clarifying the rules on polymorph or until errata is released. Custserv advice or sage advice on an issue can't b trusted in the presence of conflicting information.

 

[Dwarmaj]

Items melded into your form don't function (unless specificly stated like Wild Armor). If the new form can wear a specific item, then it won't meld is remains functioning. Spells cast prior to wildshaping stay in affect as well, so precast barkskin, bull's strength and a few others help a druid a lot. Natural Spell is a must for any shapechanging druid though.

 

[jgsugden]

I was under the impression such magics do not continue to work once in wildshape, infact there is a special item in MOTW that one can get that allows such items to continue to work once a new shape is taken just for that rule if I am not mistaken.

3.5 has different rules than 3.0/MotW. In 3.5, if the new form could wear the item, it remains. Armor and weapons (and presumably anything else held int held but not worn) do not change size, but everything else does.

WotC even listed a bunch of items for four legged animals on their site somewhere (I think it is mentioned earlier in this thread). This list included bracers and rings.