Druid overpowering us all

[Ricochet]

I am the party wizard, and the wizard spells ARE more potent then the druids, no doubt about it. Also, my DC's are higher and I have more spells in total.

 

[James McMurray]

Personally, I find the idea that an elf reincarnated into a dwarf gains no benefit to his HPs from Con rather too lame to stomach. So I find this strong evidence that HPs do change with wildshaping.

How is thinking that something is lame evidence?

This ability functions like the polymorph spell

This spell functions like alter self

Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same

Seems pretty straightforward to me. In my experience the people searching for loopholes to this are generally power gamers or munchkins looking for an extra boost.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a power gamer myself and would love it if hit points changed. But I also know that a) that's not how it works and b) it would be unbalanced if it did work that way.

 

[Diirk]

I find it interesting that a number of people have said andy collins said hp don't change.. when I very well remember a thread where he said they do. However that was a while ago and I've lost the link.

HP not changing tho just plain doesn't make sense. Thats like casting a bulls strength and saying "well you can carry more now but your chance to hit and damage are remaining the same, sorry". Stats modify abilities, its the whole point of them.

Alter self is worded poorly. The quote is as follows: "Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same."

Note that hit points is lumped in with base attack and base saves. There is no terminology for "base hit points". Thus simply hit points. The intention seems pretty clear that your base saves are modified by your new stats, your base attack is modified by your new stats, your hitpoints (from class levels etc) remains unchanged by is modified by your new stats. Alter self doesn't have new stats so it can get away with shoddy wording. Polymorph however, does.

What would happen if you found a creature with the racial bonus feat toughness? Alter self says you gain racial bonus feats. Would you really deny that extra 3 hp because "hit points don't change" ? When it says plain as day that you do infact, get the feat?

Anything else that modifies con also modifies hitpoints, such as barbarian raging, dwarven defender in defensive stance, etc. Ability scores modify stats. Its the whole point of them.

 

[jgsugden]

I find it interesting that a number of people have said andy collins said hp don't change.. when I very well remember a thread where he said they do. However that was a while ago and I've lost the link.

If you could please find where he said this it would be greatly appreciated. For the record, it was *not* on his boards or the retired WotC board for 3.5 discussion. I went over them with a fine tooth comb. Any never talked about hit points changing or not changing there.

 

[Nightfall]

If you feel the druid is getting to powerful, just have an aligment change and slit his throat when no one is looking.

 

[Ricochet]

If you feel the druid is getting to powerful, just have an aligment change and slit his throat when no one is looking.

Actually, this might not be so far-fetched, because the Druid himself has gone evil, and the rest of the party is quite uncomfortable (seeing that our Paladin noticed almost immediately). But I don't think players killing players are the best way to go ;-)

 

[Speaks With Stone]

Call Lightning is okay - but just how many fights do you have in a storm? And how often do you get a 2nd lightning bolt (after waiting 10 min).

Don't get me wrong - Produce Flame in bird form is great - but not particularly stunning. Add in some flaming spheres with produce flame (while you are grounded since you can't fly without at least using up your move equiv) and it's not that bad.

In my group, I generally don't even prep Produce Flame as the party wizard has Lightning balls, acid orbs and every other blasting spell you can imagine. The occasional flame strike is nice but doesn't really have quite the same flair after the wizard uses Shaping to drop a Lightning Ball in 4 different 10' squares to cover half the enemy.

Perhaps you as a group could consider allowing splat books on a case by case basis to give the other party members a step up if you still feel that the druid is dominating.

 

[DM2]

Actually, this might not be so far-fetched, because the Druid himself has gone evil, and the rest of the party is quite uncomfortable (seeing that our Paladin noticed almost immediately). But I don't think players killing players are the best way to go ;-)

More than a little uncomfortable, I'd guess, considering this from the Paladin class description:

Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly
associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A
paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

A paladin-led "see ya later evil guy" would greatly reduce your worries I think, though I don't have a problem with druids becoming melee giants in my campaigns (as DM or player).

DM2

 

[Nightfall]

If the druid is evil, then yes he must die. Especially if you have a paladin in the group. They have a low tolerance for evil, even LE.

 

[Pielorinho]

Speaks with Stone, check out the new version of call lightning.

I just used call lightning storm in a recent final battle, 3 PCs of 13-14th level vs. a CR 17 fire elemental critter. It was tremendous fun doing 5d10 points of damage every round -- that is, every round that I wasn't doing something more effective (such as using up my supply of Quenches).

Daniel