Druid overpowering us all

[Asmo]

Forceuser wrote:

"In 3.5, if you shapechange into a non-humanoid form your humanoid-shaped armor is magically subsumed into your new form - you can't utilize any magic items on your person that your new form cannot wear in the same manner you do. For instance, a wildshaped druid in bear form would continue to wear and gain benefit from an amulet of natural armor, but not from a ring of protection; bears have necks but no fingers. You can get around this restriction with a wilding clasp for each item you want to gain benefit from while polymorphed. If a fighter is polymorphed into a giant, his armor changes size with him but his weapon does not.
All of the above is per Andy Collins from his own messageboards a while back."

But is it 3.0 legal? I don´t even know it there´s an clear answer to this question under 3.0.
I also use a Wilding clasp,for my Periapt of Wisdom or my Cloak of Resistance.
Wildling clasp is a must, I really like it!

Asmo

 

[mikebr99]

And Mikebr99, thanks for that link; however, if you're worried about druids being overpowering, I'd advise against that variant.

You are welcome... but I'm not worried about Druids being overpowered. I am currently playing a 12th level Druid, the warriors are outshining me in melee combat especially the spiked chain weaponmaster), and the Warwizard Invoker is outshining me in devastation spells... I am leading in summoning however.

One of the things that keeps druids in check is their limited use of equipment when wildshaped. If you take away that limitation, they become even more powerful.
Daniel

I've seen quotes from the designers that stated they wanted Druids to have more flexibility to use their magic while wildshaped... though I can't reproduce them here...


Mike

 

[Asmo]

Pielorinho wrote:

"Asmo, you DID remember to take heavy armor proficiency, right?"

Oooops
nope, that hadn´t even crossed my mind when I made this druid
Shame on me. I´ve to have a long talk with my dm about this, I´m sure that he hasn´t thought of this either.
Dooh!

Asmo

 

[jgsugden]

I've seen quotes from the designers that stated they wanted Druids to have more flexibility to use their magic while wildshaped... though I can't reproduce them here...

Mike

I'm not going to spend my afternoon tracking them down, either, but I'll verify that I saw them as well. Andy Collins said it.

The big problem here is that wildshaped druids of 7th level attack with weapons that do d4 or d6 damage and have strengths of about 20 or less. Druids of 8th level attacl with weapons that do d8, d10 or 2d6 damage and have strength closer to 30. In other words, the druid gains +5 to hit and +8 damage (or so) per attack by going up 1 level.

Polymorph/wildshape doesn't work. The 3.0 rules were out of balance. The T&B rules for polymorph were out of whack. The DotW wildshape rules were decent, but still had a lot of flaws. The 3.5 rules have huge abuse problems. In the end, the rules just don't work well enough to cover the basics. This not due to a lack of effort on the part of WotC. The situation is just too complex to wrap up in one neat little package.

The best system I've been able to come up with is an ECL system for polymorph. If you use ECL limitations on forms, the advantages gained by the form are not too extreme for the level (except in limited cases where some aspects fo the PC remain - mental attributes, hit points (if you follow that view - no need to argue this point now), etc ... and can be exploited). Of course, the ECL system is also done poorly in Savage Species/3.5 so the ECLs need to be reworked as well ... (If you want to offer input on this idea, visit the thread under house rules).

 

[Mystery Man]

I wanted to know if everything is by the rules in our group..

The party:

Fighter 7, a gladiator-style type with many of the int-feats
Rogue 7, multiattacker, very sneaky
Wizard 8, illusionist, prohibited school Enchantment
Druid 8, badass

In a recent battle, the druid wild-shaped into a bear, and the wizard cast "Haste" on the party. In the following round, the druid hit three claw attacks, two of these critical hits, and missed with his bite. Damage = 70 (!)

Normally, we are not high-damage, high-powered types.

His regular damage is 35-50, he hits better than the fighter, deals more direct damage than the mage, and gets multiple attacks for free due to Wildshape.. THe thing is, are we doing this right, or are we overlooking some aspect of the Druid to balance things out?

edit: oh, all our characters is point-buy 28, and the druids stats are: str 10, dex 12 con 12 int 14 wis 18 (16 in lvl1) cha 10

In the campaign that I run the 14th level druid was able to summon 3 6th level fire elementals. We had to crack out the calculator, the damage was in the hundreds. Combat was over quickly.

 

[Pielorinho]

jgsugden, what specific problems have you seen with MotW wildshape rules? Near as I could tell, they work beautifully. (We never used them with the new, Wildshape-into-Plants stuff; admittedly it breaks down if you introduce this rule).

Asmo, there is some question about whether you're off the hook on the armor. Ironwood contains the following line:

Using this spell with wood shape or a wood-related Craft check, you can fashion wooden items that function as steel items. Thus, wooden plate armor and wooden swords can be created that are as durable as their normal steel counterparts. These items are freely usable by druids.

Does this mean that they can be used without proficiency? Or does it mean that they can use them without conflicting with the druidic vows?

I've always assumed it meant the latter, but maybe your DM will interpret it as meaning the former.

Mike, my main problem with the equipped-horsey model actually isn't power level: it's the image. I love the idea of a druid casting spells while wildshaped, and think that fits heroic literature well as an image; the idea of a bear bedecked in a cloak, an amulet, two rings, a pair of goggles, bracelets, and booties just strikes me as completely silly-looking.

In the game I just completed, I tended to find that my druid wasn't the best frontline fighter: he was far better off holding back and casting spells (flamestrike especially gives fireball a run for its money, considering its higher damage cap and potential for precise placement). Power-wise, I did better than other characters at some times (especially through judicious use of the incredible Wall of Thorns) and worse than them at other times (especially when confronted by incorporeal critters). Overall it seemed about right.

Daniel

 

[EPRock]

Not overpowered

Druid power levels: Druids have 1 huge leap in combat ability: 8th level and large wildshapes. Until 8th level they're very reasonable. At 8th level, they effectively gain larger damage dice and a lot of strength. This is one of the biggest power leaps in the game. A 7th level druid is roughly on track with his allies in terms of power. An 8th level druid in brown bear (or a few other choice forms) is a monster. When you toss on animal growth, suddenly that druid is melee God.

At 7 HD a wizard can make themselves or the Fighter a sick threshing machine even moreso than a druid.

Polymorph the (7th + level) Fighter or themselves into an Annis (Hag). Get many sick abilities, still can cast spells, still can use equipment, armor, weapons, etc.

Get a 25 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con
Get a Claw / Claw / Bite Attack Routine
Get an Improved Grab attack, Rake, and Rend attack.
Gets a +10 natural armor bonus (which stacks with the current armor).

Overall the druid changing into a bear is not a problem. The bear will have a 10X10 base which allows up to 12 people to surround, attack, and flank him.
- Animals have low Armor Classes
- Animals can be taken out easily at a range.

 

[pawsplay]

Have you ever seen a brown bear shoot a longbow? Terrible shots.

 

[jgsugden]

At 7 HD a wizard can make themselves or the Fighter a sick threshing machine even moreso than a druid.

Polymorph the (7th + level) Fighter or themselves into an Annis (Hag). Get many sick abilities, still can cast spells, still can use equipment, armor, weapons, etc.

Get a 25 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con
Get a Claw / Claw / Bite Attack Routine
Get an Improved Grab attack, Rake, and Rend attack.
Gets a +10 natural armor bonus (which stacks with the current armor).

Overall the druid changing into a bear is not a problem. The bear will have a 10X10 base which allows up to 12 people to surround, attack, and flank him.
- Animals have low Armor Classes
- Animals can be taken out easily at a range.

Polymorph is a problem using the current rules. Not just wildshape. The problem is that wildshape can be used very frequently and for long periods of time. A polymorphed fighter doesn't stay polymorphed for long.

As for structuring combats to negate the druid animal form advanatge - this is a bandage to cover a wound. It does not heal the problem. It limits the style of game you can play. If you end up using this type of solution to solve all your problems, you quickly end up with very few different styles of combats ... which gets repeptitive and boring. You want to be able to include encounters with a single foe, or with foes that are primarily melee fighters, etc ...

 

[jgsugden]

Have you ever seen a brown bear shoot a longbow? Terrible shots.

Have you ever seen a brown bear shaped druid throw a flamestrike? How about produce flame instead of a longbow?