Druid overpowering us all

[Darklone]

It's not clear. Andy Collins said hitpoints don't change, by the wording of the spell it's like Alter Self (where hitpoints don't change... but Con does not change either there).

So it's only half-official that hitpoints don't change. Houserules welcome

 

[Plane Sailing]

I notice that the reincarnation spell explicitly says that the hit points remain unchanged no matter what the new forms CON is.


The 3.0 SRD definition included the following line in the polymorph spell

The character retains his or her Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, level and class, hit points (despite any change in the character’s Constitution score), alignment, base attack bonus, and base saves. (New Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores may affect final attack and save bonuses.)

I also note that Baleful Polymorph has something similar

It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving therefrom (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren’t extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities.

which is pretty much what is present for reincarnation. I wonder why they removed it from the new definition?

Cheers,

 

[Telperion]

I'm finally starting to see why some people call the 3.5 druid "broken". O' well I like it anyway . More nasty enemies for my players to conquer!

 

[Speaks With Stone]

If you need ways to downplay the druid's capability in combat - just talk to Rel (and borrow my dice).

I keep hearing about the druid's combat ability - but I rarely have been able to implement. We are either caught entirely by surprise - so wildshape is good, but if I spend a lot of time buffing - the fight is over. OR we've tried something off the wall - which typically has me in a less than optimal position.

So perhaps it depends on how your adventures occur. If you have lots of dungeon crawls where you buff up and kick it, then the druid may have an advantage. Also, my group tends to have lots of discussions about everything and I have to keep shifting back to human to get them moving again - they are tired of playing charades with the wildshaped druid.

In summary, I'd say that the GM might need to modify the encounter types you are experiencing.

 

[Diirk]

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66418

here's a link to one of the threads on the hp issue.

 

[youspoonybard]

It's not clear. Andy Collins said hitpoints don't change, by the wording of the spell it's like Alter Self (where hitpoints don't change... but Con does not change either there).

So it's only half-official that hitpoints don't change. Houserules welcome

Iku Rex did point out something worthwhile to me, though.

If you look in Complete Warrior, with the sample Nature's Warrior writeup, the character's HP do not change, depsite a change in con score...

 

[Nifft]

In a recent battle, the druid wild-shaped into a bear, and the wizard cast "Haste" on the party. In the following round, the druid hit three claw attacks, two of these critical hits, and missed with his bite. Damage = 70 (!)

edit: oh, all our characters is point-buy 28, and the druids stats are: str 10, dex 12 con 12 int 14 wis 18 (16 in lvl1) cha 10

Three claw attacks? He should only get EITHER the Natural attack routine (Claw/Claw/Bite) OR the Iterative attack routine (+6/+1 with a SINGLE weapon, plus one Bite if he's got it). Oooo, unless he got an extra attack due to Haste, in which case it's all good.

The "balancing factor" in Wildshape is that the Druid doesn't get higher HP for his modified Con score, and his AC is gonna stink. (Having a Wizard cast Mage Armor & Haste on him will help fix this.)

The other "balancing factor" is that Druids have 3/4 BAB, and magical buffs don't last very long. One targeted dispel magic and he's just an animal -- poor AC and thus meat for the beast.

-- N

 

[Urbannen]

Polymorph Con hijack

I think the intent of the rules is that Hps never change because of polymorphing or wildshaping, even though the 3.5 Polymorph spell description is not entirely specific about it.

I think it's dumb - you should keep hit points you get for your normal character levels, but your bonus hit points should be dictated by your current Constitution, not a Constitution you don't have anymore. In one game I'm in we've decided to play it that way with the party's druid.

Why the decision by designers to not use new Con when polymorphed? Because it's too hard to figure out new bonus Hps? Because it's too hard to explain that you don't use the creature's HD when figuring out your new Hps?

 

[Pielorinho]

Nifft, the three claw attacks are due to haste, if I read correctly. [edit: I read the OP correctly, but I didn't, apparently, finish reading Nifft's paragraph. My bad]

I wouldn't worry too much about it: you're looking at the very rare occasion in which the druid makes two critical hits. Had the fighter made two crits, he may have seen similar damage.

Let's say the fighter is wielding a +2 greataxe and has a strength of 18, and specializes in greataxe. That's 3d12+30 points of damage on a critical hit; your average damage for such a hit will be 49 points.

Note also that:
-Your fighter will almost certainly have a better AC than the bear;
-Your fighter will almost certainly have better HP (assuming you side with the "hit points don't change" viewpoint -- an absolute necessity if you're finding druids overpowered) than the druid
-Your fighter can use ranged weapons
-Your fighter can, and this is pretty important if enforced, communicate with the rest of the party
-Your fighter can drink potions (such as cure serious wounds )
-Your fighter can use weapons with high critical ranges.

The druid can be nasty in combat, but they require more bffing than just a wildhsape. As a druid player, I wouldn't dream of going into melee without a mage armor and/or a barkskin cast on me first. To do otherwise would be begging to be cut down like a dog.

Daniel

 

[jgsugden]

HP Change: This has been discussed to death. The written rules are unclear, as wildshape incorporates polymorph, polymorph incorporates alter self, alter self states that hit points do not change, but polymorph changes constitution and alter self does not. Somewhat reliable sources are conflicting on the issue: Lead Designer Andy Collins said hit points do not change, the sage said hit points do change (as far as he could see) and custserv has been incredibly inconsistent. From a game balance factor: If you find druids are too strong, I suggest using the 'hit points do not change' rule. If they are too weak, change those hit points. There are two answers out there that each have considerable support. Your DM needs to pick one until WotC gets off their butss and clarifies the issue.

Druid power levels: Druids have 1 huge leap in combat ability: 8th level and large wildshapes. Until 8th level they're very reasonable. At 8th level, they effectively gain larger damage dice and a lot of strength. This is one of the biggest power leaps in the game. A 7th level druid is roughly on track with his allies in terms of power. An 8th level druid in brown bear (or a few other choice forms) is a monster. When you toss on animal growth, suddenly that druid is melee God.

If you find a form is too strong, you can either:

1.) Ignore the difference in power and let him dominate melee combat,
2.) Adjust the power of the forms (ie; reduce the strength of brown bears), or
3.) Construct encounters so that the melee ability is less useful (ie; flying foes, foes with DR/silver or DR/adamantine, foes that inflict damage when hit with natural weapons, etc ...)

I, personally, am working on an ECL system for polymorph in my game that will allow PCs to adopt forms with an ECL up to their level/caster level. This, of course, requires me to figure out a lot of ECLs. Fortunately, animal forms usually only have melee attacks, so figuring out the ECLs via trial and error is pretty easy.