D&D 5E (2014) Druids and metal armor

[weldon]

It can make sense...IF we want it to. Some folks like it, and have always liked it. And that doesn't mean their logic meter is out of whack or anything.

Sorry. I was unclear.

I agree that the rule can make sense. Your explanations make a certain sense. I'm not trying to argue against the rule itself, I'm arguing against inconsistent explanations like druids don't like metal, druids don't like technology, metal isn't part of nature, or iron isn't found in nature. Those don't make much sense and definitely trip my logic meter.

Even if we use your explanation, to make it consistent does it then follow that druids are incapable of using spells inside a metal box? Do druids make a distinction between organic materials and inorganic materials?

I'm most comfortable with the idea that there is no explanation. Druids simply make an oath not to use metal armor. But even then, I'm left to wonder… why do they make this oath? are there druids in the world that take different oaths? Why metal?

If the answer is that every DM is free to create their own fluff and houserule the restriction, then why is the rule even there? Especially when druids are the only class with any restrictions at all in their class features.

I bow to your superior smelting knowledge.

The history of technology in the ancient world was part of my education so I know a little bit about the big sweeping changes, but relatively little about smelting itself (I had to look a few things up).[/quote]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I think Druids are all about just protecting the fwuffy squiwells and pwetty twees, though.

"metal is not part of nature"

Earth - rocks and soil - are equally important parts of the Element of Earth. Which is why the whole process of making metal _could_ be seen by Druids as timbercide and rock rape.

Timbercide and rock rape made me laugh.

If druids saw things this way, wouldn't they be against using anything that wasn't found? Wouldn't they be against making trees into lumber, hides into clothing, and sticks into bows and arrows? I suppose that's possible, but I'm not very satisfied with that answer.

I think for me the armour v weapon objection comes down to a practicality in them (nature teaches that, if nothing else), where they see the utility in getting their hands dirty by using a small number of metal weapons as a necessary evil in the endless battle against the bad guys, but being against encasing themselves in the stuff, as it puts too much of a barrier between them and the Elements in their natural form that they revere/draw their power from.

While most metals are found in ore, there are some native metals that are found in nature as almost pure elements, sometimes as alloys. Copper, gold, silver. If you think ore is the natural form and smelting is unnatural, I can buy that. But it does seem to me that extracting metal from ore is not much different than using bones extracted from animals, cooking or fermenting grains, making paper, or firing clay into pottery.

 

[weldon]

We're talking about fantasy based on an actual mytho-historical event, though. Wasn't it the Romans who encountered the Celts, giving rise to the whole "cold iron beats fey" lore? And the druids would have been on the same side as the fey, for that. They may have had bronze weapons and whatever other metal items they could make, but they didn't have iron chariots or breastplates or anything.

The Celts were the first in Europe to enter the iron age. Rome is founded hundreds of years later. The invention of iron chain mail is generally credited to the Celts. The Romans expanded on this with scale mail, splint, etc.

The Celts used chariots quite a bit. In fact, the latin word for chariot is borrowed from the gallic word, implying that the romans learned about chariots from the Celts.

I don't know about breastplates.

And I think the Celts generally considered themselves at odds with the fey, something they would protect themselves from.

 

[SkidAce]

If the answer is that every DM is free to create their own fluff and houserule the restriction, then why is the rule even there? Especially when druids are the only class with any restrictions at all in their class features.

Thanks for the interesting conversation.

The answer to the above is likely, simply, not as elegant as some would like.

The rule is there because of tradition and nostalgia, and perhaps its left vague so that those who don't care for it, or find its inconsistencies grating, can simply ignore it. Those that like can develop their campaign to answer the questions like "in a metal box".

Thanks again..sadly...I must go forth to work now.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

I think I clarified my metal/nature thing when I said that metals (plural) are found in nature but usable metal (as a product) is not of nature, but rather a man made creation. If I wasn't clear I apologise but hopefully that helps and makes sense. Believe me, I'm all for Druids being into rocks and stones.
(Edit- re: paper by the way, original AD&D Druids couldn't use scrolls or books (I guess trying to emulate the oral tradition of Druids IRL)
I subscribe to the points made previously about armour insulating Druids from the Source but hand held things not. I guess a proper Druid would snifflily dismiss modern newfangled things like metal pins in favour of thorns but would admit (perhaps only to himself) that they do a good job... I assume you're American, but there's a British comedy character called Victor Meldrew who springs to mind (constantly exasperated by the modern world, his catchphrase is "I don't believe it!") - which could be fun to roleplay.
I guess, it's fantasy, you know? I like to think of role playing as that most refreshing of drinks, a suspension of disbelief. So if I need to use the "because magic" hand wave, I will. But that's just me.
The rule IS an island among a sea of emancipated, bra-less, do-what-you-like freedoms, it's true. I can see the frustration in others that this causes. But it doesn't bother me. I view the rules as a collection of likeable, bendy creatures that want to be my friends and really don't mind being ignored.

 

[jrowland]

If druids saw things this way, wouldn't they be against using anything that wasn't found? Wouldn't they be against making trees into lumber, hides into clothing, and sticks into bows and arrows? I suppose that's possible, but I'm not very satisfied with that answer.

In prior editions (OD&D/1E era spalt, not so much core) druids were very much "anti-man-made". Later editions (again, splat, not core) recast this as "the old faith" in a psuedo-cleric mold where the hard core druids were of the old faith and the new druids (new editions) were just plan old druids.

I prefer my druids to be more wild hunt civilization haters than eco-friendly hippies. But that's just me.

 

[Joe Liker]

D&D is heavily based on enforced tropes.

No, D&D used to be heavily based on enforced tropes, and players have become less and less tolerant of it.

Race/class restrictions? Gone.

Class alignment restrictions? Gone.

Inability to play as a drow (because IRREDEEMABLY EVIL!)? Gone.

This truly is just about the only mechanically enforced trope that remains, which is why a lot of us are wondering that it might just be a mistake.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The Celts were the first in Europe to enter the iron age. Rome is founded hundreds of years later. The invention of iron chain mail is generally credited to the Celts. The Romans expanded on this with scale mail, splint, etc.

Then perhaps the lore is based upon the Celts using their advanced iron technology to subjugate some other, less advanced civilization? As I said, I'm drawing on pop culture rather than historical documents, but I'd be surprised of there wasn't some kernel of fact in there somewhere. The point is just that druids represent the less-technologically advanced civilization, and that's why they can't wear breastplates or chain mail.

 

[jrowland]

This truly is just about the only mechanically enforced trope that remains, which is why a lot of us are wondering that it might just be a mistake.

I would say its a mechanically UNenforced trope...since there is no provision for breaking the trope in the books (the entire point of the thread).

But yes, trope it is. Trope on a Rope. Dope? Nope! (what a weird word, trope)

 

[Li Shenron]

Being a druid (or cleric) is way more than just a job. It's not like going in to town, and you can decide to apprentice yourself to the blacksmith or the farrier or the druid. You have to actually believe in the cause you are championing, or else it doesn't work.

The Powers That Be cannot be tricked into granting power to someone who doesn't deserve it. If you are the kind of person who would wear metal armor, then you lack the proper mindset to become a druid, and you cannot gain levels in that class. This fluff is hard-coded into the setting. (You can feel free to change it at your own table, of course, or to work out some other interpretation which matches the facts of the situation.)

So basically you are saying that "fluff is RAW" or FAW ("fluff as written") is mandatory.

And who exactly are the "powers that be" granting powers to druids according to the PHB (just asking because I don't have it yet...)? Are we to assume that this is official in every setting unless specified otherwise and we all have to abide to this FAW?

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

"The force of nature itself, or a nature deity...gods of wild nature, animals or elemental forces"
Also, Yoda.