Level Up (A5E) Druids, Great Clubs weapon proficiency or not, and the Shillelagh cantrip

[Tessarael]

The A5E Druid class lists clubs as a weapon proficiency. I first read that as implying that they are proficient in both Club and Great Club. Likewise, the Shillelagh cantrip specifies club or quarterstaff. Further searching around on the web suggests that this specifically means "club", and not "great club", though a lot of this discussion pertains to 3E D&D. 2014 5E D&D and A5E are pretty consistent as far as the rules are written for this, and there's no D&D Sage Advice that I found specifying one way or the other.

The 2024 5E D&D Druid specifies simple weapons for their weapon proficiencies, which includes proficiency in Greatclub. Nevertheless, the 2024 D&D Shillelagh cantrip specifies club, so that same restriction may still apply.

I think this is mostly a flavor issue, except when the Druid needs to do something else with their bonus action other than cast the Shillelagh cantrip. Game balance-wise it doesn't hurt to allow it, given that a Strength-based Druid is still a sub par choice, and say a Druid wild-shaped Ape whacking with a Greatclub is still better off using Shillelagh in most cases.

Thoughts? Has this come up in your campaign if you have a Druid? How do you interpret the rules as written (RAW) in this case, and what do you allow?

 

[noodohs]

As Morrus has said many times, A5e rules are not O5e rules, so I wouldn't use anything from O5e, especially not 2024 (which came out years after A5e), as reference. As far as I am concerned, all great clubs are clubs but not all clubs are great clubs, which is to say that for the sake of things referencing "clubs," both should count.

 

[Tessarael]

That was how I interpreted it too. Then I started reading through some strict interpretations of the 5E rules as written. I mentioned D&D 2024, because they intentionally allowed Greatclub for Druid therein.

 

[Selganor]

Why would you even cast it on a great club other than to reduce its damage if you use it with two hands?
The spell changes the damage of the enchanted weapon to 1d8, so even if the versatile property would raise the damage to d10 the spell would then RAW reduce it to 1d8 again

 

[noodohs]

It becomes a magical weapon and you get to use your spellcasting ability instead of of strength.

 

[Kobold Stew]

In addition to using your casting stat, using Shillelagh with a greatclub would give you access to the Push mastery (in 2024). I agree that is conceptually makes sense to allow it, but I understand why they didn't.

 

[Selganor]

Hmm... why are there "in D24" rules answers for a question about the A5E rules?

 

[Kobold Stew]

Because the OP referred to the 2024 rules, I guess.

 

[Tessarael]

Consider say a level 1 Druid with Strength 12 and Wisdom 16, who wields a Greatclub, and Scimitar or Medium Shield. Your attack options are the following, assuming Shillelagh works on it:

• Main-hand: Greatclub attack +3, damage one-handed d8+1 (5.5), damage two-handed d10+1 (6.5).
• With Shillelagh, Greatclub improves to attack +5, damage one-handed d8+3 (7.5). No benefit to using it two-handed.
• Off-hand: Scimitar attack +3, damage d6 (3.5); or use the Medium Shield for +2 AC.
  • Note: Attacking with the Scimitar is a bonus action, as is casting Shillelagh, so cannot both be done in the same round.

So casting Shillelagh on the Greatclub does improve both your attack chance to hit and the damage, as you switch from using Strength modifier to attack/damage to Wisdom modifier, which will be higher for most Druid builds.

I mentioned 5E D&D in the context that the 2024 rules do now list Greatclub as a Druid weapon, where it wasn't before. As A5E is less widely used, and hence less widely discussed than D&D, and because A5E is quite similar to it, it makes sense to look at 5E rulings for such things, if there hasn't been any specific A5E discussion of it. The reason why I started this thread was to discuss it in the A5E context, both in terms of rules as written and from a game balance perspective.

 

[Tessarael]

On a related note:

As "daggers" are listed as Druid weapon proficiencies in A5E, at first glance I would assume that encompasses crossdagger, dagger, dueling dagger, and throwing dagger. (See the A5E weapons list for details of all of those, or LUA5E page 310.) Less clear if that includes boot dagger, as boot dagger is a rare weapon.

Likewise, as "spears" are list as Druid weapon proficiencies in A5E, at first glance I would assume that encompasses longspear, spear, and spear-thrower.

Along similar lines, as a Druid is proficient in mace, I assume that they could use a shock mace without significant additional training, if the DM provided such a weapon as loot, reward, or purchase.

I don't think these interpretations break anything mechanically. The Druid is still better off with a (great)club or staff with Shillelagh. The spear-thrower does give +d6 damage within a spear's range. The great club does do d8 damage, or d10 damage two-handed as does the longspear. These are small benefits for a Druid that doesn't have Shillelagh or hasn't cast it.

The issue is just whether the plural is ambiguous referring to only a single specific weapon (club, dagger, and spear), or whether it refers to a category of weapons clubs, daggers, and spears.

As a DM, it comes down to what is fun, ensuring it is not mechanically unbalanced, and what provides some character versatility that could make for some interesting options.