Duelist question

[kreynolds]

I guess it's pretty gray .

Yeah. Like I said, in regards to "jump with a 5-foot step", part of me wants to say yes, since you can use Move Silently with a 5-foot step. But another part of me is just really freaked out about it, like rat-tail soup, where it doesn't matter how good you say the soup is, I'm definately still gonna have some reservations about eating it.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The Acrobatic Attack description specifies that if you would have jumped more than the distance between you and your opponent, you may limit the jump distance to the distance between you and your opponent. Consequently, whatever rules or judgements may be used for an attempt to jump a certain distance in other situations, they are irrelevant in the case of Acrobatic Attack. A duellist will not overshoot his target when leaping to attack his opponent.

It is also significant that the duellist may only use acrobatic attack if he jumps at least five feet towards his opponent. Consequently it may only (arguably) be used with a full attack action if the duellist begins exactly ten feet from his opponent (one five foot jump) or is hasted (in which case, the duellist could move and jump towards his opponent with the partial action, and make a full attack action with his normal action).

Given that the duellist's advantages in armor class (through fighting defensively) are maximized and his vulnerabilities minimized (by denying two weapon fighters or other characters with multiple attacks the opportunity to make full attack actions) by the use of spring attack, it would seem to me that the most obvious use of acrobatic attack is as a part of a spring attack. If the duellist uses power attack (2 points) to put the attack bonus to damage instead, the duellist will deal more damage than a comparable level fighter using a greatsword (assuming that precise strike makes up for the likely difference in strength bonusses) thus making spring attack an even more effective option in single combat.

Sometimes, I make my players make a ranged touch attack against the ground for this sort of thing. I rule that Jump has a range increment of double the character's ranks. If the object they are jumping at is moving, it has an effective Dex score of (move / 10).


Example: Jo has 15 ranks in jump, the Ring of Jumping, 7 ranks in Tumble, skill focus (JUMP), the Acrobatic feat, and Str 18, for a total modifier of +55 to jump skill. His range increment while jumping is 15'. He leaps at a moving platform 35 feet away. He rolls a 7, for a total of 62, more than enough to cover the distance. He then makes a ranged touch attack (+15 base, +2 dex, -2 increments, +15 total) against AC 8 (the block is Large, has an effectiv Dex of 8 from movement). Jo rolls a 7, or a total of 22, more than enough to beat AC8, so lands on the block.

Just one schleps take on the issue,

-Jeph

 

[kreynolds]

The Acrobatic Attack description specifies that if you would have jumped more than the distance between you and your opponent, you may limit the jump distance to the distance between you and your opponent. Consequently, whatever rules or judgements may be used for an attempt to jump a certain distance in other situations, they are irrelevant in the case of Acrobatic Attack.

They're not irrelevant at all. The Jump skill description already states you can jump a shorter distance if you roll high.

A duellist will not overshoot his target when leaping to attack his opponent.

That's because the Jump skill already gives you the option to shorten the jump if you roll high.

 

[Bastoche]

The Acrobatic Attack description specifies that if you would have jumped more than the distance between you and your opponent, you may limit the jump distance to the distance between you and your opponent. Consequently, whatever rules or judgements may be used for an attempt to jump a certain distance in other situations, they are irrelevant in the case of Acrobatic Attack. A duellist will not overshoot his target when leaping to attack his opponent.

It is also significant that the duellist may only use acrobatic attack if he jumps at least five feet towards his opponent. Consequently it may only (arguably) be used with a full attack action if the duellist begins exactly ten feet from his opponent (one five foot jump) or is hasted (in which case, the duellist could move and jump towards his opponent with the partial action, and make a full attack action with his normal action).

Given that the duellist's advantages in armor class (through fighting defensively) are maximized and his vulnerabilities minimized (by denying two weapon fighters or other characters with multiple attacks the opportunity to make full attack actions) by the use of spring attack, it would seem to me that the most obvious use of acrobatic attack is as a part of a spring attack. If the duellist uses power attack (2 points) to put the attack bonus to damage instead, the duellist will deal more damage than a comparable level fighter using a greatsword (assuming that precise strike makes up for the likely difference in strength bonusses) thus making spring attack an even more effective option in single combat.

Hum that's a good point... I guess I'll reconsider my next feat choice for my duelist then

 

[Ranger REG]

Well, I might be wrong too, but the distance you jump counts against your movement that round. So, either Jump is part of your move, or it's one of those "not an action" skills. I wanna say it's part of your move. Not 100% on that though.

But isn't Acrobatic Strike an extraordinary ability? (S&F, page 18.)

It is a move action, but if your Jump skill check result is greater than the distance between you and your opponent, then you can perform the movement as a free action to close in on your opponent.

OTOH, if the Jump skill check is less than 5 feet, then you cannot perform this ability nor gain the benefit. You simply have to move.

However, if the Jump skill checkt is more than 5 feet but less than the distance between you and your opponent, you still gain the benefit (+2 to attack and damage) but you must perform a move action to close in on your opponent.

At least that's what I got from the text description of the class feature. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[kreynolds]

But isn't Acrobatic Strike an extraordinary ability? (S&F, page 18.)

Well...yes, but I don't see how that has any bearing on this.

It is a move action, but if your Jump skill check result is greater than the distance between you and your opponent, then you can perform the movement as a free action to close in on your opponent.

But that isn't a function of Acrobatic Strike in and of itself. The Jump skill already allows you to adjust your distance jumped without penalty on its own (if your roll is good enough), so Acrobatic Strike doesn't add anything new to that.

OTOH, if the Jump skill check is less than 5 feet, then you cannot perform this ability nor gain the benefit. You simply have to move.

Right.

However, if the Jump skill checkt is more than 5 feet but less than the distance between you and your opponent, you still gain the benefit (+2 to attack and damage) but you must perform a move action to close in on your opponent.

It doesn't say that though.

If your jump check is more than 5-feet but less than the distance between you and your opponent, then you didn't close the distance with the Jump, thus you aren't in range to make a melee attack, so I don't see how this ability would still function if you can't make the attack right after the Jump. Everything about this ability hinges on the Jump check, and if you don't make the check, it shouldn't work.

That's just my intepretation though.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Who knows, we might both be wrong.

 

[Ranger REG]

I'm gonna take a risk here and quote to you regarding the Jump check for Acrobatic Strike.

Make a Jump check; if the result is less than 5 feet, you cannot use this ability to attack. If the distance is greater than that between between the duelist and the opponent, the duelist can limit the distance to that of the opponent as a free action.

Hmm. Come to think of it. It is a move action. The last sentence actually allow the duelist to correct or limit the jumping distance as a free action. Otherwise, he would be jumping OVER his opponent when he is supposed to jump TOWARD his opponent to attack and gain the Acrobatic Strike benefits.

Still, it begs a question: what if the distance (i.e., Jump check result) is less than that between the duelist and the opponent but still over 5 feet?

 

[hong]

I'm gonna take a risk here and quote to you regarding the Jump check for Acrobatic Strike.

Hmm. Come to think of it. It is a move action. The last sentence actually allow the duelist to correct or limit the jumping distance as a free action. Otherwise, he would be jumping OVER his opponent when he is supposed to jump TOWARD his opponent to attack and gain the Acrobatic Strike benefits.

You can already limit the distance you jump. It's how the skill works.

Still, it begs a question: what if the distance (i.e., Jump check result) is less than that between the duelist and the opponent but still over 5 feet?

You can still make an acrobatic attack, providing you can reach the opponent by means of normal movement. Remember that jumping is simply one means of covering the distance you move in a round; it isn't a separate action, and it doesn't preclude normal movement.

 

[Bastoche]

If the jump distance is more than 5 feet, you only get one attack. That part is clear. What I'm wondering is if the distance is 5 foot does it count as a 5 foot step, allowing you your first attack at +2 ti hit and damage but also allow you to make all your other itterative attacks ?

I'm pretty sure that the way the ability is worded, it implies that you have to be "in midair" to benefit from it. I guess you could move in then jump the last 5 feet (instead of jumping and then closing in) and benefit from the ability. But if the distance is only 5 feet does it count as a "5 foot step" or as a "move action" ?

 

[Darklone]

A related question: Does swinging on a candelabra count as movement at all?
After all, you only sit on it and reach down to kick or stab your enemy while swinging by.