D&D 5E Duelist Rogue? [+]

[doctorbadwolf]

So, in my other recent rogue thread, here, I posited a gunslinger rogue, with trick shots and such by way of repurposed battlemaster manuever, and a pool of Focus points to fuel those trick shots.

But it occurred to me in that thread, that perhaps what is needed is instead a Duelist rogue, with a choice of a special weapon (or pair of) that is finely crafted and important to the duelist, causing the duelist to choose between melee and ranged weapons.

Each choice would have a benefit roughly similar to a fighting style, suited to make the duelist feel like a fencing duelist or a gunfighter. maybe with differences based on whether you dual wield or not? I'd want simplicity here, but enough room to make it viable to fight with a free hand, or a dagger and rapier, and have one gun not be just worse than two guns.

As with the gunslinger thread, bonus action perception (or deception?) check to gain the ability to sneak attack without advantage or an adjacent ally against the chosen target for 1 minute. Maybe spend a focus to gain advantage against the target for 1 minute instead?

Some kind of quick draw that just makes the action economy friendly.

Later stuff like bullet time for gunfighters and maybe something like adding wisdom or int or cha to damage once per turn for the melee duelist?

IDK, I feel like this is either a great idea, or I'd be better off with two separate subclasses on very similar chassis?

 

[Stormonu]

I think they tried something similar to this with the Swashbuckler subclass.

Short of building an entire class around it, I would think you’d want a mix of Fighter and Rogue levels. Fighter (Battlemaster) for the various maneuvers with your weapon set and fighting style, rogue for the damage spike and movement shennanins.

 

[Ancalagon]

I think they tried something similar to this with the Swashbuckler subclass.

Short of building an entire class around it, I would think you’d want a mix of Fighter and Rogue levels. Fighter (Battlemaster) for the various maneuvers with your weapon set and fighting style, rogue for the damage spike and movement shennanins.

I agree completely - in general rogue and fighter multiclass well, and for this concept that combo is very good. Kensei monk might be another intriguing combination ...

 

[DeviousQuail]

Not a fully fleshed out idea but a spark of something: let the rogue trade in sneak attack dice for extra effect(s) on their next attack. Might need to include a basic rule that you can only use one extra effect on an attack unless stated otherwise. Assume that the sneak attack dice return to "full" at the start of their next turn or end of current turn. Maybe only after you actually hit with a sneak attack? Probably other balance considerations that I haven't thought of yet.

Ideas:
Sneak attack on next attack even if you don't meet the normal requirements, 1 less die.
Advantage on next attack, 2 less dice.
Additional object interaction, 1 less die.
Roll d8s instead of d6s, 1 less die.
Roll d10s instead of d6s, 2 less dice.
Roll d12s instead of d6s, 3 less dice.
Reaction move 5 ft without provoking OA, 1 less die.
Attempt to disarm the opponent with a sneak attack, half dice.
Off-balance target (temporarily reduce movement), 1 less die.
Defensive maneuvering (half cover until start of next turn), half dice.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think they tried something similar to this with the Swashbuckler subclass.

Short of building an entire class around it, I would think you’d want a mix of Fighter and Rogue levels. Fighter (Battlemaster) for the various maneuvers with your weapon set and fighting style, rogue for the damage spike and movement shennanins.

They pair especially well for a rogue-primary build, yeah. I do think that using the difference from Eldritch knight to Arcane Trickster as a guide to porting Battlemaster maneuvers to rogue can work, though.

Perhaps I just need to build some new fighting styles, and then a Swashbuckler/Battlemaster will really sing. Stuff like a two-fisted shooter style, Blade and Bolt style (one handed ranged weapon and one handed melee weapon), Main Gouche, and a one hand free style. Maybe also a style that just makes your damage with a weapon magical and gives 1 wizard cantrip?

I agree completely - in general rogue and fighter multiclass well, and for this concept that combo is very good. Kensei monk might be another intriguing combination ...

Kensei is interesting. The bonus action feature works with SA, unlike martial arts or flurry of blows. Especially good for a blade and bolt build, taking rapier and handcrossbow (if that’s allowed?) as your kensei weapons.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Okay, upon consideration of the ideas presented here, I think that instead of what would basically be an alternate swashbuckler, I'm going to add some options to Cunning Action that let any rogue do things like trip, temporarily blind (this one should be harder to pull off and quickly go away), disarm, etc on successful attacks by spending a bonus action.

Something like,

Starting at level 3, you gain the ability to use your attacks to place an enemy at a disadvantage. When you successfully attack a creature with an attack that qualifies for Sneak Attack, you can spend a bonus action granted by your Cunning Action feature to do one of the following: and then list some basic maneuvers.

Perhaps add a small feature to the mastermind that lets you do a thing to a creature that an ally hits while flanking with you, or allow an ally to do so when you give them the help action on an attack and they hit.

make the rogue a dirty fighter.

Let's see...

Trip
You use your strike to move your target, using clever positioning and a quick feint to cause them to fall flat. The target must succeed on a dexterity saving throw or be pushed 5ft and fall prone.

Disarm
Your attack follows through into disaster for your opponent, leaving them weaponless before you. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity (their choice) saving throw or drop an object they are holding at your feet. They have advantage on the saving throw if they are holding the object with two hands, and disadvantage if the attack against them was a critical hit.

Grit in The Eyes
You use the momentum of your attack to throw sand or some other gritty substance into the face of an opponent. You must have an open hand to use this feature. The target must succeed on a Constitution or Dexterity (their choice) saving throw of be blinded. At the beginning of their next turn, they can make another saving throw to end the effect. If the effect persists when they end their turn, it ends then. (either this, or it simply imposes disadvantage on attacks and perception checks that rely on sight, until the end of the target's next turn)

Feint and Follow Up
Each attack sets up the next. Make a Deception or Slieght of Hand check opposed by the target's Perception or Insight. If you exceed their result, you have advantage on your next attack against the target befo the end of your next turn.

Fleche
You rush an enemy, in an attempt to end the fight quickly. When you have moved at least 10ft before making a melee attack on your turn, you can use this ability to add your proficiency bonus to the damage of the attack. If you go before another creature in the first round of combat, you can use this ability and also gain advantage on the attack.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Then I'd go back to the gunslinger idea, and flesh that out without relying to hard on manuevers, necessarily, and I'd review and make sure the swashbuckler really gets a lot out of a lot of the tricks.