D&D 4E Dump Stats in 4e?

[hong]

Right now charisma is a big benefit to classes that rely on it, but is completely worthless for classes that don't. On the other hand we have con, which in most games is needed for everyone. I've never seen a character put an 8 in con with a point buy.

I've seen one guy do this (or maybe it was a 10). We were 18th level at the time, and he did it basically just to prove a point. He died in his first fight, when we blew up a balor.

He would also have died in his 2nd fight, in the same way, but I remembered at the last minute and dragged him out of there.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I think it would be cool if 4E reduced the importance of high stats compared to 3E. Dump stats aren't so much of a problem, it's people running around with 30 Cha or 30 Str that really hurts my suspension of disbelief. Maybe a cap on how high stats can go would be a good thing.

This is a really good point, actually. I'm not sure I like the idea of a "hard" cap, but if you can't boost your stats through leveling (you "only" have Feats, Skills, Talents, Maneuvers, Spells, etc. to choose from), and you get rid of the Strength Girdle Six-Million-Dollar-Man syndrome you'll have characters that are hyper-competent (hey, they're 20th level!), but still of human physique / mental talent.

One thing I really liked about AD&D 2e was how the stats between 20 and 25 were clearly reserved for the exceptionally strong (e.g., Giants) or exceptionally intelligent (e.g., Mind Flayers and Dragons), or whatever. When every Tom, Dick and Conan have Str 27, the game loses something. IMO.

 

[hong]

Well, I wouldn't want stats to be completely static over a character's career either. They could still have stat bumps every X levels (X = 1, 2, 3 or 4 depending on taste). But if high stats rapidly run into diminishing returns, then that takes away a lot of the incentive to boost your stats as high as possible. Eg they might have 13-14 = +1, 15-16 = +2, 17-20 = +3, 21-26 = +4, 27-34 = +5, etc, or some similar nonlinear progression instead of the current one.

 

[Szatany]

Well, I wouldn't want stats to be completely static over a character's career either. They could still have stat bumps every X levels (X = 1, 2, 3 or 4 depending on taste). But if high stats rapidly run into diminishing returns, then that takes away a lot of the incentive to boost your stats as high as possible. Eg they might have 13-14 = +1, 15-16 = +2, 17-20 = +3, 21-26 = +4, 27-34 = +5, etc, or some similar nonlinear progression instead of the current one.

I think linear progression is more elegant though. You could achieve similar effect by making increasing stats more expensive as they grow. Instead of getting +1 every 4 levels, a character could be gaining 1 point per level, but costs of increasing stats would be as per point-buy method. So if you want to increase a low stat, you can do that once per level (up to 14 IIRC), if you want to invest in your best stat, you will be able to raise it by +1 every 3 or more levels.

Oh, and +stat items and spells should go IMO.

 

[Cadfan]

Strength could be less important if maneuvers are around, but it will never be unimportant because even if you get damage bonuses from level, the amount of times you hit will be a major determinant of damage output. Your expected damage output is (chance of hitting)*(average damage per hit). You can't neglect either side of that equation.

Dex will probably be just as important as it is now. Almost everyone will want a +1 or so in it, but it will be otherwise neglected if the character has access to heavy armor. Dex is the ultimate stat of middling importance.

Con will probably also be just as important as it is now. The only way con could become less important is if the Con bonus stayed about the same size, but the general hit point bonus from leveling grew, making the Con bonus smaller in a relative sense. I doubt this will happen, except maybe at level 1. Save or Die usually involves Fort saves, but if those are toned down they'll probably be Save or Take Huge Damage, which will still be hit points and therefore Con related.

If Int is used like it is in Saga, then it will be just as important for skills as it is now. Instead of bonus skill points, you will get bonus trained skills. Comes out basically the same, except that it works retroactively if you gain an Int bonus at higher levels.

Wis- I don't know what will happen here. Some people have suggested that Wis will be necessary for certain powers. My suspicion is that this is based on comments about character creation from the WOTC blogs in which a player mentions having a high Wis on his fighter so that he can take "oppy" powers. I didn't really think this was a major change, I figured it was just a wisdom score prereq for a feat. I don't know what will happen here, but if Will saves are moved to Cha, then Wis will need something new to buff its usefulness.

Cha will be important socially, as always, which means that unless its given some combat power, people will continue to use it as a dump stat. Some players intentionally ignore social skills, and those non-Cha based characters who train in them will have rank bonuses that outstrip some measily +2 cha bonus at higher levels. Good money seems to be on Cha controlling Will saves, which will make it important again.

 

[Cadfan]

I think linear progression is more elegant though. You could achieve similar effect by making increasing stats more expensive as they grow. Instead of getting +1 every 4 levels, a character could be gaining 1 point per level, but costs of increasing stats would be as per point-buy method. So if you want to increase a low stat, you can do that once per level (up to 14 IIRC), if you want to invest in your best stat, you will be able to raise it by +1 every 3 or more levels.

Oh, and +stat items and spells should go IMO.

Both of these are very, very good ideas. Right now the best thing to do is to get all your low stats set up exactly right at character creation, then put all your level up points into your highest stat for your entire career. The only time you deviate from this policy is when you created your character with die rolls, and got an odd number.

Letting people have more frequent boosts to their less important stats would be harmless, appealing, and fair.

 

[Szatany]

Cha will be important socially, as always, which means that unless its given some combat power, people will continue to use it as a dump stat. Some players intentionally ignore social skills, and those non-Cha based characters who train in them will have rank bonuses that outstrip some measily +2 cha bonus at higher levels. Good money seems to be on Cha controlling Will saves, which will make it important again.

Maybe, but with new social encounter rules coming into play, ignoring Charisma might be a very bad idea now.

 

[Bihor]

The reason why dump stat exist is because youe not penalysed for low score.

there should be a pelnalty for them or lessen the penalty for the other.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

In 4e, every stat will be a dump stat.

 

[OurManMute]

In 4e, every stat will be a dump stat.

In 4e, charisma dumps you.