Dundjinni and licensing dispute?

[evildmguy]

Greetings!

First of all, msd said

The other element in all this which bears mention is CC2. There is a well-established piece of software out there that is used casually by hobbyists as well as professionally by publishers (without any similar restrictions) for about half the cost (the website seemed to indicate a price of around $40 USD). If Fluid is attempting to upset the apple cart with their product, they are going to have to recognize where all the apples are.

I am a big CC2 fan but I would be remiss if I didn't point out that NBOS also has a mapping program as well. In fact, ProFantasy was working on a new program to make maps of the galaxy but held off in response to NBOS' AstroSynthesis. So, there is more than CC2 in terms of mapping programs. This doesn't include at least two freeware mapping programs as well.

After having said that, I like CC2 better.

Actually, as far as I can tell, Fluid has already upset the apple cart to everyone's advantage. They've introduced competition into the RPG mapping field.

I remember not too long ago that CC2 was priced at $79.95. Maybe my memory is off, but it seems the price cut came after Dundjinni was announced.

Again, this is not completely true.

NBOS has pretty much been at $40, with some discounts of up to $8, since I became aware of them several years ago. I think it was in response to NBOS that ProFantasy made their own pricing change. I don't know for sure but I thought this was also not long after ProFantasy products were available at RPGNow. Anyone have the exact timeline on this?

Again, as I said above, ProFantasy seems to be reacting to NBOS and what they have been doing as they are a direct competitor.

And just browsing the boards now, I see an aggreement between Code Monkey Publishing and Profantasy to create integrated adventure creation software.

Now, both of these things may have happened without Dundjinni, but they may also have not. I suspect that Dundjinni was a definite consideration in the decision-making process, in any case.

I would also suspect that Fluid is not unaware of these developments, and will adjust their business plan as needed.

I am not sure what to think of this in terms of the rlxp you suggest between ProFantasy's products and Fluid. On the one hand, CC2 is NOT supposed to be graphical. I have seen some add ons, though, such as the harn world project, that can make some very nice looking CC2 maps. OTOH, I do know they are working on a graphical version of their program which looks freakin' beautiful!

I think that PF is more interested in expanding their base and adding in more functionality. I think this is a good thing because I am not sure what else they could do in their mapping program. (Maybe modern or SciFi feel but some of that does exist for CC2.) I also think this will help their program appeal to more people, which is a good thing for them as well. The question then becomes, would they have done this on their own without such programs as AstroSynthesis and Dundjinni?

I do agree that competition is nice and it warms my heart, while draining my checking account, that ProFantasy is going to respond to these things. I am more than willing to wait for what ProFantasy does because of their track record.

Good discussion! Thanks!

Have a good one! Take care!

edg
Alternity pimp

 

[msd]

You very well might be right

Actually, as far as I can tell, Fluid has already upset the apple cart to everyone's advantage. They've introduced competition into the RPG mapping field...I would also suspect that Fluid is not unaware of these developments, and will adjust their business plan as needed.

I think you're probably right and the introduction of competition will only make the quality of product better.

Having said that, Fluid's attempt to compete with more established products (which, as evildmguy rightly points out are not limited to CC2) will, IMHO, be somewhat hindered if distribution of maps created with their software are not commercially re-distributable (and I recognize that this statement is an oversimplification of the actual facts).

The fact of the matter is that, while competition is great for the consumer, the consumer who sees this restriction might not consider the Fluid product as being competitive.

Again, all IMO...

-matt

 

[kreynolds]

Don't go slamming the product just because you didn't research a little more before posting...

The art is part of the product, thus he has a right to "slam" it if he so chooses. Fluid is not just selling the mapper. They're also selling the art.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Maybe I'm just a bit slow, but one thing I don't understand: what is the purpose of limiting the commercial use of the art in the program? What rights would Fluid be endangering if they allowed commercial use of anything designed with their program?

Obviously, they need to protect the underlying program, so I agree with their "placeholder" strategy within actual .dja files. But creating a map, turning it into an image, then including it in an adventure that a company then sells doesn't seem to threaten their business at all. If anything, I would think that would be free advertising - just require any publisher to state prominently that the maps were created using their product.

Just don't understand what the issue is for Fluid...

 

[crabclaw]

Just don't understand what the issue is for Fluid...

Knee-jerk greed?

 

[WingOver]

Just don't understand what the issue is for Fluid...

Maybe they haven't figured out all the revenue potential with commercial licensing and just decided to say "no" until they have?

I tend to think that if people used their maps in commercial products, it would make it alot more popular... free advertising. Plus theres a lot of aspiring garage-publishers out there who may represent missed sales over this issue.

Having said that, I don't fault them for being cautious with their new baby... maybe they need time to work it out, maybe they'll change their minds.

 

[DaveMage]

Actually, as far as I can tell, Fluid has already upset the apple cart to everyone's advantage. They've introduced competition into the RPG mapping field.

I remember not too long ago that CC2 was priced at $79.95. Maybe my memory is off, but it seems the price cut came after Dundjinni was announced.

And just browsing the boards now, I see an aggreement between Code Monkey Publishing and Profantasy to create integrated adventure creation software.

Now, both of these things may have happened without Dundjinni, but they may also have not. I suspect that Dundjinni was a definite consideration in the decision-making process, in any case.

I would also suspect that Fluid is not unaware of these developments, and will adjust their business plan as needed.

Good point! I thought I also noticed in that posting that a new version of CC2 Pro will be out later this year. I'm interested to see their pricing structure.

 

[kreynolds]

Maybe they haven't figured out all the revenue potential with commercial licensing and just decided to say "no" until they have?

This is quite likely the reason behind it. Seems to me that Fluid specializes in making software for other companies, not for themselves, so this is new territory for them.

 

[Emirikol]

Dundjinni OK's maps for unpaid RPGA adventures

I got an official answer for y'all from Dundjinni's legal person:

http://www.dundjinni.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=369&TPN=1
Mindy - Djinni (Admin)
Posted: 06/10/2004 at 10:41am | IP Logged
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Sorry for the delay
As a quick answer to the initial RPGA question - Yes, you can use our software to create maps and adventures for tournament play as long as you aren't selling them. In fact, we would love to see our maps on gaming tables everywhere. In exchange, as JT said, we'd like you to put our logo, URL, and made with Dundjinni in small type at the bottom.

---

This means that we are allowed to use Dundjinni for LG adventures.

This is GREAT NEWS!!!


jh

 

[msd]

What?

In fact, we would love to see our maps on gaming tables everywhere. In exchange, as JT said, we'd like you to put our logo, URL, and made with Dundjinni in small type at the bottom.

I think you will all agree that I've been pretty supportive (perhaps too) of Fluid in this thread. As a result, I think I've earned one small pot shot...

You'd love to see your maps on gaming tables everywhere? Then why the restriction? Can Fluid possibly be so obtuse as to not be able to envision that the restriction on re-distribution is a potentially major impediment to seeing their maps on gaming tables everywhere?

There...got it out of my system...back to civil and supportive mode...

-matt

p.s. - Emirikol, I apologize in advance as if this appears to be shooting the messenger. That is not my intent at all. Quite the opposite. I am, in fact, very appreciative of the fact that you are bringing the latest and greatest developments...