Dungeon #99 - Is the end near?

[WizarDru]

Well, I remember this quote from Ryan after the buyout (concerning listening to customers): "That they buy DUNGEON magazine every two months at a rate twice that of our best selling stand-alone adventures." All that shows is that Dungeon sold better than TSR's adventures, not that it was really selling like hotcakes, remember, we're talking about print runs of 10,000 to 100,000, here. TSR was only a big fish in a small niche market, and WotC's only slightly bigger. Given that the cost of printing has sky-rocketed due to paper costs in the last four years, Dungeon's profit margin has probably shrunk accordingly.

I also found lots of anecdotal evidence from Ryan's research, that showed that most gamers leave the hobby within 5 years, after growing tired of it. His evidence also showed that there was a core audience who bought D&D products to the exclusion of other game materials...200,000 in 1999, although it certainly spiked much higher, later. Now consider that Dungeon, by virtue of it's material, is not as popular as Dragon. None of my six players buy it, although almost all of them get Dragon. IME, this is hardly uncommon. The sales numbers for Dungeon have probably dropped sharply in the last year or so, as D&D has 'leveled off' in sales.

 

[Darrin Drader]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Johnny, Erik & Chris

First, I resent the sly insinuation that that newer readers opinions are not as valid as "old schoolers" who have been with it from the get-go. That said, I've been reading Dungeon about as long as you.

I apologize if this came off as confrontational. I really was actually curious, not trying to insinuate that newer readers opinions are less valid. I do believe however that newer readers are more likely to jump ship when a change they don't like comes along. Needless to say, I'm still happy with the magazine although I will admit that it has seen a lot of changes recently.

I've seen your name before in Dragon #296... the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook support piece on new stronghold enhancements, right? Great article, but you left out all the price breakdown info for the fortified inn/trading post, Drekken's Rest I think it was called. Probably a goof on WoTC's part; they were always screwing up and leaving out important bits of articles if they didn't just cut or change them on purpose without telling anybody (ask Sean K). Anyway, I'd very much appreciate that missing info if you'd care to post it here. It might make me less curmudgeonly toward your posts, LOL. No promises, though.

Thanks for your kind words on this article. I will have to see if I can dig up the files on this. Its been so long since I wrote it that I really don't remember if the costs were figured. I thought I had figured out all four of them in a spreadsheet that was turned in with the article. I'll see what I can find and post it if I still have it.

Regarding your other point about Hasbro forcing WoTC into cutting off the RPGA if it was unprofitable, I don't agree. I think they've been misled by WoTC with faulty logic and fuzzy math into thinking the RPGA has value as a recruitment tool to help grow/sustain the hobby. Corporations with deep pockets support bone-headed, money-losing propositions like this all the time if they think it has some strategic long-term value towards garnering future profits. I don't think it does, and I think it is a waste of time and resources. Neither one of us being party to the insides of WoTC/Hasbro corporate matters, we'll have to chalk it up to a draw. You believe one thing, I believe another. Neither of us can be sure we're right, and (gasp!) we could both be wrong. Though, of course, I rarely am... at least in my own mind.

Ah the perils of getting into flame wars on the internet... There is still some inaccuracy here to clear up. While I have no official ties to Paizo, I am a Wizards employee (corporate office, not retail). I have some information on this, but it starts getting into areas where my NDA applies and I don't feel comfortable discussing corporate business strategies on message boards. What I do feel comfortable saying about the RPGA is that it definitely has a valued place in the business. If someone officially representing the RPGA wants to show up and elaborate, then that would be their call. But hey, I'm not posting here as a representative of WotC. All the opinions I express are my own, which is why I don't call out who my employer is in my sig and I generally try to stay out of threads dealing with speculative stuff regarding the business.

 

[hellbender]

I think we should just be thankful that there is anything out there for us at all. I remember the time before Dungeon when the mini-games (sometimes boardgames) where in the centre of Dragon and when adventures came out ("Into the Forgotten Realms"), it was cause for celebration. Look at what some other companies give as supplements (e.g. the "Rifter"), some of these can be very hit and miss (although the Perez comic in the Rifter was cool).


hellbender

 

[BryonD]

Well, I remember this quote from Ryan after the buyout (concerning listening to customers): "That they buy DUNGEON magazine every two months at a rate twice that of our best selling stand-alone adventures." All that shows is that Dungeon sold better than TSR's adventures, not that it was really selling like hotcakes, remember, we're talking about print runs of 10,000 to 100,000, here. TSR was only a big fish in a small niche market, and WotC's only slightly bigger. Given that the cost of printing has sky-rocketed due to paper costs in the last four years, Dungeon's profit margin has probably shrunk accordingly.

I also found lots of anecdotal evidence from Ryan's research, that showed that most gamers leave the hobby within 5 years, after growing tired of it. His evidence also showed that there was a core audience who bought D&D products to the exclusion of other game materials...200,000 in 1999, although it certainly spiked much higher, later. Now consider that Dungeon, by virtue of it's material, is not as popular as Dragon. None of my six players buy it, although almost all of them get Dragon. IME, this is hardly uncommon. The sales numbers for Dungeon have probably dropped sharply in the last year or so, as D&D has 'leveled off' in sales.

Well said and all very fair.

But I don't think you can interpret Ryan's quote as being compatible with a magazine being "on its deathbed" at that time.

Maybe it is now.

Regardless, none of that changes the points I made about Pazio presuming that Dungeon buyers would take to Poly or that Pazio has made comments to the effect that if I say "I don't want Poly" then they take it as if I am saying "Your design skills suck and you are lame." (And a Pazio person said pretty much that, in different words, directly to me via e-mail)

No offense to you, wizardDru. If you were Pazio's spokesperson, I might be a bit more sympathetic at this point.

 

[EricNoah]

Folks, please feel free to use this thread as a vehicle for expressing your opinions on the magazine. Please do not use it to bash each other or a certain "type" of gamer, to ascribe ulterior motives, or belittle each others' opinions. If it continues to be a "bickerfest" I will close it.

 

[WizarDru]

But I don't think you can interpret Ryan's quote as being compatible with a magazine being "on its deathbed" at that time.

True. And he may very well have said that it was doing well, though I don't recall it.

Regardless, none of that changes the points I made about Pazio presuming that Dungeon buyers would take to Poly or that Pazio has made comments to the effect that if I say "I don't want Poly" then they take it as if I am saying "Your design skills suck and you are lame." (And a Pazio person said pretty much that, in different words, directly to me via e-mail)

Well, in my case, they presumed correctly, but that's neither here nor there.

I personally think Johnny Wilson needs a few lessons in how to represent his company in public, or at least in internet forums. He may be trying to be flip, but sometimes comes off as cocky and arrogant...to people who have no patience with such behavior. He could take a few pages from Monte Cook's Book. (Heh. Cook's book. I digress.) On the other hand, I think also that Paizo's folks are getting a little tired of being needled constantly, right or wrong. While people have every right to complain about a magazine they've subscribed to or love dearly, some folks are downright rude about it. There's really no need for bad manners on either folks' side

And make no mistake, I think the burden is on Paizo here to present itself in a forthright manner....consider how Anthony Valterra is perceived versus Johnny Wilson. AV had a terrible press release for the BoEF, but his handling of the event afterwords left everyone calm, if not in agreement. JW can often act as gasoline on the proverbial fire.

No offense to you, wizardDru. If you were Pazio's spokesperson, I might be a bit more sympathetic at this point.

Heh. None taken, and I hope no received. Mind you, if I were Paizo's spokesperson, I wouldn't still be having trouble with my Dragon subscription. At least my Dungeon subscription is back on track.

Oh, and it's just WizarDru...you can drop the extra 'D'. Everybody keeps wanting to give me two of 'em.

 

[Matchstick]

Wow, it has been forever since I've posted. Hi to Eric, PC, and all the others I remember.

I'll throw in my thoughts with the intent of this thread becoming somewhat of a poll for Paizo.

I don't use Poly at all, and would much rather that space be dedicated to D&D adventures. I just don't have the time to run multiple games, and other than the Gamma World game (which was neat to look through) I've not even been tempted to play any of the mini games.

I do have a subscription and don't plan to cancel, which perhaps means this is an ignorable post.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Johnny, Erik & Chris

triple post (edit)

 

[Iron_Chef]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Johnny, Erik & Chris

edit (triple post)

 

[Iron_Chef]

I apologize if this came off as confrontational. I really was actually curious, not trying to insinuate that newer readers opinions are less valid. I do believe however that newer readers are more likely to jump ship when a change they don't like comes along. Needless to say, I'm still happy with the magazine although I will admit that it has seen a lot of changes recently.

Now that's the way to post! You're really earning that "Esquire" on the end of your name; that was an Anthony Valterra quality response (I mean that as a compliment). Your latest reply completely defused me, and likely any others who might have thought you were casting aspersions on the outspoken "grumpy" section of the readership. I apologize if I misinterpreted your motives and ascribed sinister intentions/ulterior motives to your posts where none were.

I think you're right that new readers are more likely to jump ship when they see something they don't like creep in to "their" magazine, while old timers put up with a lot more before finally jumping ship. That said, I think that a significant number of Dungeon readers are new, brought in by 3e, and failing to cater to them is a recipe for disaster, just as surely as failing to give the old timers what they've come to expect over the years. But I think the majority of both demographic groups (old and new readers) want the same thing: more D&D adventures, less (hopefully none) of anything else.

Thanks for your kind words on this article. I will have to see if I can dig up the files on this. Its been so long since I wrote it that I really don't remember if the costs were figured. I thought I had figured out all four of them in a spreadsheet that was turned in with the article. I'll see what I can find and post it if I still have it.

Your article was the primary reason I bought that issue; I'm very picky about Dragon and Dungeon buys after feeling ripped-off by a Dragon subscription that yielded approximately 6.5 useful issues out of 12 in 2000-01. Not good odds. #q296 was one of the best issues ever, IMO, and that was largely due to the quality and utility of your article, which was without a doubt in my mind, the centerpiece of the issue. I'm just now getting around to using it, and that's when I noticed the price (total and breakdown) information of Drekken's Rest was completely missing. Everything else appeared intact. Frankly, your article was the kind of thing I think we should see more of in Dungeon: locations, locations, locations! We don't even need them to be big complex adventures so much as provide cool maps with defined contents and a few hooks to get the juices flowing (depending on where the hooks are placed, LOL). I'm not trying to flatter you, either; I'm simply calling it as I see it. The article kicked ass and whatever our current disagreement, it remains one of my favorites (and I've been collecting Dragon off and on since #50!). If I could receive this bit of info, it would be greatly appreciated.

Ah the perils of getting into flame wars on the internet... There is still some inaccuracy here to clear up. While I have no official ties to Paizo, I am a Wizards employee (corporate office, not retail). I have some information on this, but it starts getting into areas where my NDA applies and I don't feel comfortable discussing corporate business strategies on message boards. What I do feel comfortable saying about the RPGA is that it definitely has a valued place in the business. If someone officially representing the RPGA wants to show up and elaborate, then that would be their call. But hey, I'm not posting here as a representative of WotC. All the opinions I express are my own, which is why I don't call out who my employer is in my sig and I generally try to stay out of threads dealing with speculative stuff regarding the business. [/B]

A graceful way to exit, though I suspect mention of this earlier might have clarified things and prevented some of our more colorful fencing of words!

Ah, well. No harm done and no ill will on my part. Thanks for the fun debate!