Dungeon #99 - Is the end near?

[Darrin Drader]

Re: Re: Thanks Johnny, Erik & Chris

I know that WotC won't be releasing standard modules, but does this mean that we will never see any more FR adventures like spider queen or that they will not release any mega adventures for thier new champaign setting.

It's already been stated by various people at WotC that the company won't be releasing any new adventures in the foreseeable future. There is always a chance that we'll see one with the new campaign setting (they did have one for the Wheel of Time RPG, which was the only piece of support for that game), but we likely won't see much more than that (if we even see that).

What means is that if all the people discontinuing their Dungeon subscriptions in disgust over added content, a more frequent publishing schedule, and natural inflation actually manage to kill the magazine, they will be cutting off the best and most affordable source of adventures in the industry. Sure, you can still go out and buy the big ones produced by the D20 companies, but we all know that those are hit or miss in terms of quality, usually setting specific, varying widely in flavor, and usually run at least 10 bucks a pop. In other words, killing the mag would be a disservice to those that do like high quality adventures from established and upcoming designers, and it would kill a large portion of support not only for D&D, but also for Star Wars and D20 Modern.

But hey, gamers are creatures of habit that border on obsessive/compulsive and based on the judgments I've seen on these boards recently, not open to changes, innovations, or consideration of people who like to mix things up with some different content once in a while. So if it happens to have a new publisher (even if the new publisher is made up of exactly the same people as the old publisher), clearly the best thing to do is whine about it loudly and kill it in divine retribution for your displeasure.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Re: Re: Re: Thanks Johnny, Erik & Chris

killing the mag would be a disservice to those that do like high quality adventures from established and upcoming designers, and it would kill a large portion of support not only for D&D, but also for Star Wars and D20 Modern.

This is so patently untrue as to be laughable. The quality of Dungeon's adventures is painfully hit and miss, just like adventures from any other publisher. Most of Dungeon's adventures suck, IMO. I get maybe one good one per issue if I'm lucky. Maybe. The vast majority of people who buy Dungeon are Dungeon Masters who play D&D and buy it for D&D adventures. They don't care about Star Wars or d20 Modern content. There are not enough people out there to merit Star Wars or d20 Modern getting their own magazine, but that doesn't mean the D&D crowd should have to get unwanted and unusable content shoved down their throat, taking up space that could be used for D&D.

But hey, gamers are creatures of habit that border on obsessive/compulsive and based on the judgments I've seen on these boards recently, not open to changes, innovations, or consideration of people who like to mix things up with some different content once in a while. So if it happens to have a new publisher (even if the new publisher is made up of exactly the same people as the old publisher), clearly the best thing to do is whine about it loudly and kill it in divine retribution for your displeasure.

IMO, we got along fine without Star Wars or d20 Modern (or Hijinx) for decades. I don't care about d20 outside of D&D. All I want is D&D content and not have to pay for other games I can't use. Force-feeding us Poly, LGJ, Star Wars and Modern content is not innovative. Clearly these products in Dungeon are on life support, and I say pull the plug! It is the pigheaded refusal of Paizo to cancel these features that is killing Dungeon, not the refusal of the readerbase to accept content they don't want.

 

[Darrin Drader]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Johnny, Erik & Chris

IMO, we got along fine without Star Wars or d20 Modern (or Hijinx) for decades. I don't care about d20 outside of D&D. All I want is D&D content and not have to pay for other games I can't use. Force-feeding us Poly, LGJ, Star Wars and Modern content is not innovative. Clearly these products in Dungeon are on life support, and I say pull the plug! It is the pigheaded refusal of Paizo to cancel these features that is killing Dungeon, not the refusal of the readerbase to accept content they don't want.

I think this proves the point I was just making. Its always about ME! There's no room in our magazine for people who might actually play these other games and would like to see them at least marginally supported.

Bah!

 

[KenM]

I just picked up issue 100, good issue. But they said that issue 101 will have another subsriber only adventure. Why not have a part of poly be subsriber only? IMO It was Dungeon first, they should keep it that way. I get it for the adventures. A letter that was in issue 100 expresed some of the same views I have. The response was " you still get more adventure material then if you bought a module off the rack". How can haveing subsriber only content, when i buy the magazine off the rack, be better value?

 

[Arnwyn]

Re: Re: Re: Thanks Johnny, Erik & Chris

Sure, you can still go out and buy the big ones produced by the D20 companies, but we all know that those are hit or miss in terms of quality,

Just like Dungeon...

usually setting specific,

Not that I've seen (e.g. NG, Troll Lord, Monkey God...).

varying widely in flavor,

A good thing.

and usually run at least 10 bucks a pop. In other words, killing the mag would be a disservice to those that do like high quality adventures from established and upcoming designers, and it would kill a large portion of support not only for D&D, but also for Star Wars and D20 Modern.

Agreed.

But hey, gamers are creatures of habit that border on obsessive/compulsive and based on the judgments I've seen on these boards recently, not open to changes, innovations, or consideration of people who like to mix things up with some different content once in a while.

Oh, you mean just like the entire general population? Give me a break. I've seen this type of comment bandied around on ENWorld a few times by terribly misinformed people, and here it is again. The above comment applies to the populace at large (e.g. *cough*New Coke*cough*).

So if it happens to have a new publisher (even if the new publisher is made up of exactly the same people as the old publisher), clearly the best thing to do is whine about it loudly and kill it in divine retribution for your displeasure.

Oh, so complaining/disagreeing = "whining"? Nice try. That's gotten pretty old and tired here at ENWorld already.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Johnny, Erik & Chris

This is so patently untrue as to be laughable. The quality of Dungeon's adventures is painfully hit and miss, just like adventures from any other publisher. Most of Dungeon's adventures suck, IMO. I get maybe one good one per issue if I'm lucky. Maybe. The vast majority of people who buy Dungeon are Dungeon Masters who play D&D and buy it for D&D adventures. They don't care about Star Wars or d20 Modern content. There are not enough people out there to merit Star Wars or d20 Modern getting their own magazine, but that doesn't mean the D&D crowd should have to get unwanted and unusable content shoved down their throat, taking up space that could be used for D&D.

IMO, we got along fine without Star Wars or d20 Modern (or Hijinx) for decades. I don't care about d20 outside of D&D. All I want is D&D content and not have to pay for other games I can't use. Force-feeding us Poly, LGJ, Star Wars and Modern content is not innovative. Clearly these products in Dungeon are on life support, and I say pull the plug! It is the pigheaded refusal of Paizo to cancel these features that is killing Dungeon, not the refusal of the readerbase to accept content they don't want.

While you're entitled to your opinion, I find this to be very misguided. As I've said ealier in this thread, Star Wars HAS a magazine, and for reasons I'm not completely sure of, Gamer was canned. I'm fairly sure it wasn't because of there 'not being enough people to merit thier own magazine' though, because Gamer had huge support among the SWd20 fans. Now we have a little bit of SW info in every even numbered issue of Poly. That's it. I think you are underestimating the amount of people that play SWd20, because I know of a very large number who are buying Dungeon just for those issues of Poly that have Star Wars content. Paizo isn't stupid, they're not going to cut off as large a section of readers as Star Wars d20 fans...while not as vocal as D&D, its very popular. Why? Because its STAR WARS.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Johnny, Erik & Chris

I think this proves the point I was just making. Its always about ME! There's no room in our magazine for people who might actually play these other games and would like to see them at least marginally supported.

Bah!

Maybe if I was the only one with this position. Maybe if Dungeon hadn't been "all D&D, all the time" from the start. With your position as a contributor (some might consider you an "insider") to the magazines, you are naturally biased and your comments clearly self-serving (perhaps you'd like these features to remain so you can get paid for contributing/"innovating" to them). No offense intended, just my belief after reading your posts.

Your stubborn clinging to positions held by Paizo look to be intended as insider "spin" and "damage control," IMO. You embody a position that typifies that of Paizo management (again, IMO); that position is a steadfast refusal to listen to what the majority of the fans want. We want Dungeon back the way it was before (all D&D) or not at all. If Paizo doesn't give the bulk of its fans what they want, and the magazine dies, then it's Paizo's fault, not ours. We want to buy Dungeon, but without Poly, LGJ, Star Wars, Modern or any non-D&D content. The way it always has been before the RPGA and powers that be conspired (perhaps in good faith, perhaps not) to ruin it.

If the RPGA was truly financially viable and not a misguided drain on corporate resources, then there would be enough RPGA subscribers to have kept Poly and LGJ alive as their own separate entities, wouldn't there? If the Star Wars RPG was as popular as WoTC claims, then Star Wars Gamer would still be being published, wouldn't it?

Marginal support is worse than no support, IMO, esp. if it interferes with support for "the world's most popular RPG": D&D. If the market won't support this content, then the content is not economically viable and should be flushed from official channels and released as OGC for fans or daring third party publishers to support on their own.

Which brings to me another bone of contention: the mini-games are not OGC, when quite clearly, they should be (mechanics-wise, at least). WoTC's refusal to make the mini-games OGC is the reason they are dying on the vine; there can be no real fan or third party support without them being made OGC. The primary reasons the mini-games are flopping is a combination of D&D fans not wanting them in their D&D mags, the mini-games not being OGC, the games not having enough detail to be truly usable long-term, and the hit or miss nature of the games themselves, with rare gems like Pulp Heroes and the surprisingly decent (though still something I'd never play) revision of Spelljammer being followed by unutterable lameness like Hijinx. An interesting idea would be to release a big hardcover, full color book of d20 mini-games of varied genres and see how well that sells. Probably not very well, but you never know. Making it a support volume for d20 Modern/d20 Future (using those rules) might make it feasible. A support volume of D&D mini-games that gave you rules and settings (or modifications to existing settings) to try low magic/high magic/no magic and "historical" style of play would be far more interesting and likely to sell better than any non-D&D volume, however.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Johnny, Erik & Chris

Star Wars HAS a magazine

Correction: Star Wars HAD a magazine. If Star Wars was something I played, I probably would have bought it. I flipped through it several times and thought it was decent, but there was too much attention given to non-RPG elements, such as the SW CCG. Too much attention, IMO, being ANY attention.

The mag flopped because it was not economically viable. The reason Dungeon is flopping is because WoTC, and now Paizo, refuse to give D&D fans what they want. Make no mistake:

Dungeon WILL die, and soon, unless (and maybe even if) Paizo doesn't give in to our demands to immediately kill all non-D&D (Poly, LGJ, SW, Modern, etc.) content and return the magazine to its roots. Trying to keep economically untenable products afloat may be noble, but it is misguided and a terrible mistake for any company. I say Dungeon may die even if Paizo does give in, because they've dragged their corporate feet so long and so loudly that they've aliennated even more people than they would have otherwise. It may be too late to save it, no matter what they do. And it's all their fault!

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks Johnny, Erik & Chris

Correction: Star Wars HAD a magazine. If Star Wars was something I played, I probably would have bought it. I flipped through it several times and thought it was decent, but there was too much attention given to non-RPG elements, such as the SW CCG. Too much attention, IMO, being ANY attention.

The mag flopped because it was not economically viable. The reason Dungeon is flopping is because WoTC, and now Paizo, refuse to give D&D fans what they want. Make no mistake:

Dungeon WILL die, and soon, unless (and maybe even if) Paizo doesn't give in to our demands to immediately kill all non-D&D (Poly, LGJ, SW, Modern, etc.) content and return the magazine to its roots. Trying to keep economically untenable products afloat may be noble, but it is misguided and a terrible mistake for any company.

Oops, typo. Meant to say HAD too.
I never did mind the CCG stuff, because it was Gamer...not just d20. It was interesting to at least look through, and I don't have a horrible hatred for CCGs. I'm not completely sure why the magazine flopped, but I'm going to look into it...I'm not all that sure it was because of not making enough money. It easily could have been, but from the numbers of people I've seen supporting it, that just seems surprising it was die off for that reason.
The problem with cutting SWd20 content in Dungeon/Poly is fairly simple...Star Wars is NOT OGC. It probably won't ever be because of its strong ties to such a large franchise. That means, the ONLY Star Wars content we get is in the occasional Poly issue, and the WotC releases. D&D and d20 Modern are OGC, and can get a lot more support. I personally think that if Paizo simply dropped all non-D&D content from Dungeon, Dungeon WOULD die. This board isn't exactly a fair representation of how popular Poly is, but there are a lot of people saying they buy Dungeon only for Poly. Buy cutting it, there could be an indirect result of killing the entire magazine...hmm...seems that Paizo is stuck in a Catch-22. Keep Poly, they loose a lot of the D&D readers...cut Poly, they loose nearly all of the Poly readers. Keep Poly and threads like this will just continue to come up about how its useless...cut Poly, and then we get threads screaming about wanting Poly BACK...it will be interesting to see how this is dealt with, but I think Paizo can handle it without too much difficulty...

 

[coyote6]

IIRC, people from WotC & Paizo have said that Dugeon was going to die, before the merger with Polyhedron. So Dungeon isn't "flopping" because they aren't giving "the fans what they want"; it's flopping because there apparently aren't enough people that want to buy Dungeon for it to survive anymore, period.

Which is a shame, 'cause I find it useful (pre- and post-Poly).