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Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG from Goodman Games
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cthulhudarren
Explorer
I just hope that the combat classes get nice things too and are balanced with casters.
mach1.9pants
Hero
^Um look a few post above yours!
It seems that the Mighty Arms does get powerful, but it maybe (from what has been said on the DCC board) that the game tops at 10th level.
It seems that the Mighty Arms does get powerful, but it maybe (from what has been said on the DCC board) that the game tops at 10th level.
goodmangames
First Post
Hi everyone,
A couple quick answers to some of the questions raised in this thread:
Spellcasting and page flipping: Legitimate point based on reading the description of the game, but not an issue in play. I guess I should point out again that this game has been in "stealth playtest mode" for well over a year; all the issues being brought up here have been hashed through in actual play, not just some "design document." Wizards typically have 4-6 spells, maybe a couple more if they have high ability scores, and slightly more as they advance in level. Each "spell table" fits on one 8.5x11 page (and that's only because they're in MS Word format; they'll probably be smaller in final published form). I hand out those pages before the game (in the final book they will "permission granted to photocopy for personal use," etc.). There's no "page flipping"...the wizard just rolls a d20 on the page in front of him. After a couple combat rounds the wizard is usually on top of it. (That's not to say the tables are perfect; I still need to improve a couple things, but it's not a game-slower.)
Actually, to give a point of comparison...DCC RPG runs about 2x-3x as fast as any 3.5 game I ever played in, and is an order of magnitude faster than 4E. In a four-hour session we'll usually complete multiple combats involving many opponents, as well as solve a puzzle or two, complete some simple NPC interaction, etc. Modules that would take 3-4 sessions under 3.5 rules typically take 2 sessions under DCC RPG rules. This is one of the things I am striving for; my best memories of D&D are fast-moving sessions where everybody is constantly engaged, not the modern games of "I'll go get a beer while you figure out the exact combination of tactical moves that maximizes your next action." I'm also a big fan of board games, and I particularly like designs that keep every player constantly engaged (Puerto Rico is brilliant!) - in my opinion, D&D needs to get back to that.
It's definitely not for everyone, and there will be some of you who walk away unsatisfied. But I think there will also be many of you who find you really enjoy it.
High powered casters / tactical strikes with magic missile: I'm still debating maximum level in this game but I'll probably end up at 10th being the highest. I am striving for a style of play comparable to what I recall from the early 1980's. In your OD&D and AD&D games from the 1980's, how many of you had a PC that legitimately made it past 6th level? Anybody? It was incredibly rare. 10th level characters were unheard of. Even getting to 6th level was a big deal. Keep this power scale in mind as we discuss spells...a caster with a modifier of +10 is extraordinary. Even getting an unmodified +6 on the table (e.g., without spellburn) is extraordinary.
And, with that noted, recall that (a) every spell is cast with a d20 roll, so even if a wizard spellburns 10 points of ability scores to end up with, say, a +16 on the table (+6 base and +10 from the spellburn), he can still roll a 4...or even a natural 1... and (b) arcane spellcasting is dangerous! Wizards tend to become corrupted over time, and may have to, ahem, negotiate their way to power with supernatural creatures that have their own agendas. A 10th level wizard in DCC RPG is like the wizards in any REH Conan novel or the heroes of Moorcock, Merritt, Lovecraft, and Vance: the wizards have power, but at a cost...
So, to cast the "tactical strike" magical missile with a 30+ result is not something any wizard can do consistently -- or even predictably on a one-time basis.
Lots of RPGs on the market: Can you find me one written by someone who has read almost everything in Appendix N?
DCC RPG is attempting something I have yet to see in any published work: it is NOT a retro-clone, but an attempt to re-imagine what D&D could have been, if the original inspirations were expressed in a modern rules set. Even the OSR retro-clones do not reach as far back into the origins of the game as I am attempting to do. DCC RPG may or may not succeed in its task -- time will tell -- but the attempt at "pre-D&D swords & sorcery" is not something I have seen any other published product attempt. Dragons At Dawn is probably as close as they come, and that's an attempt to look at only one half of the origin point. DCC RPG explicitly attempts to build a game that captures the ability to play adventures corresponding to the original inspirations of Gygax and Arneson, portrayed with a modern rules set. There's more on the subject in my design diaries on my forums: Designer's Blog #2: Pre-D&D Swords & Sorcery
Hope that helps.
A couple quick answers to some of the questions raised in this thread:
Spellcasting and page flipping: Legitimate point based on reading the description of the game, but not an issue in play. I guess I should point out again that this game has been in "stealth playtest mode" for well over a year; all the issues being brought up here have been hashed through in actual play, not just some "design document." Wizards typically have 4-6 spells, maybe a couple more if they have high ability scores, and slightly more as they advance in level. Each "spell table" fits on one 8.5x11 page (and that's only because they're in MS Word format; they'll probably be smaller in final published form). I hand out those pages before the game (in the final book they will "permission granted to photocopy for personal use," etc.). There's no "page flipping"...the wizard just rolls a d20 on the page in front of him. After a couple combat rounds the wizard is usually on top of it. (That's not to say the tables are perfect; I still need to improve a couple things, but it's not a game-slower.)
Actually, to give a point of comparison...DCC RPG runs about 2x-3x as fast as any 3.5 game I ever played in, and is an order of magnitude faster than 4E. In a four-hour session we'll usually complete multiple combats involving many opponents, as well as solve a puzzle or two, complete some simple NPC interaction, etc. Modules that would take 3-4 sessions under 3.5 rules typically take 2 sessions under DCC RPG rules. This is one of the things I am striving for; my best memories of D&D are fast-moving sessions where everybody is constantly engaged, not the modern games of "I'll go get a beer while you figure out the exact combination of tactical moves that maximizes your next action." I'm also a big fan of board games, and I particularly like designs that keep every player constantly engaged (Puerto Rico is brilliant!) - in my opinion, D&D needs to get back to that.
It's definitely not for everyone, and there will be some of you who walk away unsatisfied. But I think there will also be many of you who find you really enjoy it.
High powered casters / tactical strikes with magic missile: I'm still debating maximum level in this game but I'll probably end up at 10th being the highest. I am striving for a style of play comparable to what I recall from the early 1980's. In your OD&D and AD&D games from the 1980's, how many of you had a PC that legitimately made it past 6th level? Anybody? It was incredibly rare. 10th level characters were unheard of. Even getting to 6th level was a big deal. Keep this power scale in mind as we discuss spells...a caster with a modifier of +10 is extraordinary. Even getting an unmodified +6 on the table (e.g., without spellburn) is extraordinary.
And, with that noted, recall that (a) every spell is cast with a d20 roll, so even if a wizard spellburns 10 points of ability scores to end up with, say, a +16 on the table (+6 base and +10 from the spellburn), he can still roll a 4...or even a natural 1... and (b) arcane spellcasting is dangerous! Wizards tend to become corrupted over time, and may have to, ahem, negotiate their way to power with supernatural creatures that have their own agendas. A 10th level wizard in DCC RPG is like the wizards in any REH Conan novel or the heroes of Moorcock, Merritt, Lovecraft, and Vance: the wizards have power, but at a cost...
So, to cast the "tactical strike" magical missile with a 30+ result is not something any wizard can do consistently -- or even predictably on a one-time basis.
Lots of RPGs on the market: Can you find me one written by someone who has read almost everything in Appendix N?
DCC RPG is attempting something I have yet to see in any published work: it is NOT a retro-clone, but an attempt to re-imagine what D&D could have been, if the original inspirations were expressed in a modern rules set. Even the OSR retro-clones do not reach as far back into the origins of the game as I am attempting to do. DCC RPG may or may not succeed in its task -- time will tell -- but the attempt at "pre-D&D swords & sorcery" is not something I have seen any other published product attempt. Dragons At Dawn is probably as close as they come, and that's an attempt to look at only one half of the origin point. DCC RPG explicitly attempts to build a game that captures the ability to play adventures corresponding to the original inspirations of Gygax and Arneson, portrayed with a modern rules set. There's more on the subject in my design diaries on my forums: Designer's Blog #2: Pre-D&D Swords & SorceryHope that helps.
mach1.9pants
Hero
Just to let you readers know that spellburn is burning off STR/DEX/CON (or the DCC equivalent, cannot remember the names) to get extra. A risky thing in any game, sure you can lose a bit of STR but DEX as a Wizard? CON, hell no!
I am not sure of the recovery rates etc but I can imagine it taking a fair while. According to the man above, it happens often in Cons/one shots... not so much in campaigns!
Man I really cannot wait to run this game.
I am not sure of the recovery rates etc but I can imagine it taking a fair while. According to the man above, it happens often in Cons/one shots... not so much in campaigns!
Man I really cannot wait to run this game.
fireinthedust
Explorer
Lisa Stevens (I think) mentioned that Paizo did their own game because they were annoyed that they'd spent at least $1000000 on art for Dungeon and Dragon that, thanks to WOTC, they couldn't use. In part, other reasons notwithstanding.
Goodman Games, I believe, has every right to create their own game because they'll be writing the modules for that game. Even if they never did another module for a different company, they pride themselves on their adventures. Enough so, I might add, that they are one of the most recognizable names in the rpg market.
Would you, if you'd invested so much time and money, and personal energy, in a company want to base it on the (basically) whims of an unaffiliated company?
If they do their own game, they don't have to worry about Hasbro being sold *tomorrow*, no notice, and D&D going into 5th edition.
They're big enough they can pull this off. And they won't make another "Paizo", because Paizo is unique, lovely, and frankly Paizo is Paizo.
Goodman Games is someone else: they'll get to be Goodman Games, and make DCC the way they would if they'd designed their own rules system.
If DCCrpg is fantastic (and I haven't seen it; and while I expect it will be, I'll reserve judgement until I see it), THEN we'll see. But the kind of people who liked their adventures will likely enjoy the RPG anyway, as it'll likely appeal to their tastes. If not, it'll be a good example of game design.
If not, we'll see what they turn to. Frankly, they could do Pathfinder, or 3.5, or any rule set fairly well.
Goodman Games, I believe, has every right to create their own game because they'll be writing the modules for that game. Even if they never did another module for a different company, they pride themselves on their adventures. Enough so, I might add, that they are one of the most recognizable names in the rpg market.
Would you, if you'd invested so much time and money, and personal energy, in a company want to base it on the (basically) whims of an unaffiliated company?
If they do their own game, they don't have to worry about Hasbro being sold *tomorrow*, no notice, and D&D going into 5th edition.
They're big enough they can pull this off. And they won't make another "Paizo", because Paizo is unique, lovely, and frankly Paizo is Paizo.
Goodman Games is someone else: they'll get to be Goodman Games, and make DCC the way they would if they'd designed their own rules system.
If DCCrpg is fantastic (and I haven't seen it; and while I expect it will be, I'll reserve judgement until I see it), THEN we'll see. But the kind of people who liked their adventures will likely enjoy the RPG anyway, as it'll likely appeal to their tastes. If not, it'll be a good example of game design.
If not, we'll see what they turn to. Frankly, they could do Pathfinder, or 3.5, or any rule set fairly well.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
I don't begrudge Goodman making their own game -- for someone who got into this industry originally as a fan, this is arguably the truest expression of that fandom.
I'm selfish, though: I only have so much time for so many games. I may well pick up and read the DCCRPG, but I do not foresee booting any of the current games I play in my limited time to play it. It is only my selfish desire that they continue to make adventures in a format compatible with the games I do play.
But I absolutely do wish them the best of luck on this and hope for them to be crazy successful with it. They've given me a lot of fun over the years and, if nothing else, the light from their torches helps light the (divergent) path I'm on.
I'm selfish, though: I only have so much time for so many games. I may well pick up and read the DCCRPG, but I do not foresee booting any of the current games I play in my limited time to play it. It is only my selfish desire that they continue to make adventures in a format compatible with the games I do play.
But I absolutely do wish them the best of luck on this and hope for them to be crazy successful with it. They've given me a lot of fun over the years and, if nothing else, the light from their torches helps light the (divergent) path I'm on.
darjr
I crit!
How would I get a play test at one of my local cons?
From a little con PretzCon
To a big one Omaha Metro Area's Gaming Convention, Nuke-Con. Escape Reality and Play a Game! Join us for a Weekend of Games!
To a new one Omaha, Nebraska's Premier Pop-Culture Expo & Convention!
After reading the designer notes and other posts I really want to try this out sooner rather than later... freerpgday couldn't come sooner.
From a little con PretzCon
To a big one Omaha Metro Area's Gaming Convention, Nuke-Con. Escape Reality and Play a Game! Join us for a Weekend of Games!
To a new one Omaha, Nebraska's Premier Pop-Culture Expo & Convention!
After reading the designer notes and other posts I really want to try this out sooner rather than later... freerpgday couldn't come sooner.
goodmangames
First Post
For those of you missed the "post-GaryCon playtest reports," we've posted the Gary Con flyer on our web site. It has a little more material about DCC RPG that will interest fans of classic fantasy. And a lot of folks are loving the module art. You can download it from Dungeon Crawl Classics
Regarding playtests, there's another playtest scheduled in Kentucky today, one in San Diego two weekends from now, another one in Tennessee planned around Free RPG Day. As for Omaha, one vote has been noted. If there's a significant interest in any particular region, we can try to arrange something, so speak up if you're interested...
Regarding playtests, there's another playtest scheduled in Kentucky today, one in San Diego two weekends from now, another one in Tennessee planned around Free RPG Day. As for Omaha, one vote has been noted.
If there's a significant interest in any particular region, we can try to arrange something, so speak up if you're interested...
Falstaff
First Post
For those of you missed the "post-GaryCon playtest reports," we've posted the Gary Con flyer on our web site. It has a little more material about DCC RPG that will interest fans of classic fantasy. And a lot of folks are loving the module art. You can download it from Dungeon Crawl Classics
Regarding playtests, there's another playtest scheduled in Kentucky today, one in San Diego two weekends from now, another one in Tennessee planned around Free RPG Day. As for Omaha, one vote has been noted.
Savannah Georgia!
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