I like enough realism to allow for suspension of disbelief; eg most monsters need access to a water source & food. If I have Chokers & Darkmantles (especially) in a dungeon, and they weren't placed there by the BBEG, I'd like it to connect to the Underdark or otherwise be within a large cave environment - maybe a deep rift. Neither of those travel overland. Rats & dire rats can be almost anywhere though, and will cluster around inhabited areas to feed off the garbage of other creatures.
Dungeon Realism
- Thread starter Vorput
- Start date
Shadowslayer
Explorer
Vorput said:
To be honest, it really depends on your players IMHO. If they dont care, save yourself a bit of the hassle. Mapping out a dungeon's ecosystem and food chain can be a drain on the DMs already considerable prep time.
Obviously it means something to you, so make sure you at least give a nod to some kind of logic. Gotta make yourself happy first or else DMing becomes too much like work.
I used to be guilty of making sure every little thing made sense, but then my players were too busy hacking up the critters to be bothered wondering what they usually ate.
My 2 cents
Pseudonym
Ivan Alias
As a player, I do prefer that a dungeon complex have some sort of internal consistancy, even if it is not explicitedly stated via some NPC or flavor text. If we are on the fourth level of some ancient tomb and we enter a room with a lone cow in it, hey fine. Discovering just what the hell the random cow is doing in that room, in the context of the overall dungeon, to me is as much fun as the party acomplishing the goal that brought us to the tomb in the first place.
In many cases I am willing to suspend disbelief in the interest of having fun; perhaps early conditioning from the days of dragons in 10x10 rooms, but I prefer that there be some reason and plausibility for the creatures encountered in a dungeon.
In many cases I am willing to suspend disbelief in the interest of having fun; perhaps early conditioning from the days of dragons in 10x10 rooms, but I prefer that there be some reason and plausibility for the creatures encountered in a dungeon.
Ravenknight
First Post
A little structural planning and realism makes the dungeonmaking more fun for me. Especially since my players are the investigative types and wants to know the truth behind every complex they enter. I don´t mind though since that form of entusiasm makes the work worth it. Since half the fun of being a DM is the preparing part anyway.
It all boils down to what YOUR players are like and how much time You have.
It all boils down to what YOUR players are like and how much time You have.
Vorput said:
When DMing, I like to know the answers to these kinds of questions, but I don't go out of my way to make it clear to the players. If they want to investigate or speculate, then great, but I think it can also be cool if they don't exactly know how it all happened.
Consider some real world examples of cool places - Stonehenge, the pyramids, the Snake Mound in Ohio, or any number of other ancient locations. In many cases, the questions of how and why they were built are still open for speculation. In a D&D world, deducing something about a set of ancient ruins may well lead to more adventures.
Rel
Liquid Awesome
It sounds to me like you've already got a reasonably functional ecosystem working in your example.
Whoever occupies the Temple throws their garbage and refuse down one or more shafts that lead into the caves. There this garbage is consumed by the rats (who breed like crazy). The rats are in turn consumed by the Darkmantles and Chokers who also occasionally eat each other.
I'd place a small opening (one just big enough for a rubbery critter like a Choker or Darkmantle to squeeze through) that leads to a deeper cave complex. And I might plant some evidence that the Chokers have snagged a victim or two from the Temple once in a while.
The only thing you haven't mentioned is a source of water. This can be remedied by adding a pool fed by a spring or dripping water from above (add some blind cave fish if you want to vary the diet of the Chokers a bit more). Or you can make it a plot point that the Chokers steal water from the Temple from time to time. Or even that the Temple dwellers have learned that if they dump a barrel of water down there occasionally, it keeps the critters below from surfacing searching for water.
Whoever occupies the Temple throws their garbage and refuse down one or more shafts that lead into the caves. There this garbage is consumed by the rats (who breed like crazy). The rats are in turn consumed by the Darkmantles and Chokers who also occasionally eat each other.
I'd place a small opening (one just big enough for a rubbery critter like a Choker or Darkmantle to squeeze through) that leads to a deeper cave complex. And I might plant some evidence that the Chokers have snagged a victim or two from the Temple once in a while.
The only thing you haven't mentioned is a source of water. This can be remedied by adding a pool fed by a spring or dripping water from above (add some blind cave fish if you want to vary the diet of the Chokers a bit more). Or you can make it a plot point that the Chokers steal water from the Temple from time to time. Or even that the Temple dwellers have learned that if they dump a barrel of water down there occasionally, it keeps the critters below from surfacing searching for water.
The_Universe
First Post
Just do enough to avoid players wondering "what the heck is THAT doing here!?" unless that's specifically what you're going for. If you have a dungeon full of lizardmen and suddenly there's a room with a mindflayer in it, your players are going to latch on to the thing that's different as some sort of signifier. As others have noted, you don't have to be perfect, but you probably should get at least some semi-clear pattern that has to do with the dungeon's origins/purpose in your mind before you start.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
Level of detail will depend mainly on your style, with a bend towards your groups style.
Personally I despise Orc and Pie style dungeons. I have to have a good idea as to why encounters are where they are and how they interact with the rest of thier environs.
My players, on the other hand, mostly do not care and don't really notice most of the detailing. However I have one player who catches on quite well.
As example, I was running a one-shot ruined castle delving. I built a story line over the ages of the wheres and whys, which included having a wooden keep burned down and a Rogue utilizing the destroyed keeps defenses..
The Keep had a teleport trap that took invaders to a holding cell, sans clothing, which had been located on the 2nd floor. The Rogue cultivated Archer bushes underneath where the cell used to exist.
It was great to see Puck's look when he pieced it together. The bit of work on the history made his game more enjoyable and my effort more rewarded.
Any, I strongly advocate avoiding the 'what the heck' moments.
Many people consider the Deserts of Desolation to be a great set of modules...except for this problem. They have a sealed maze with treasure laying out in the open as well was wandering bandits who have been stuck there for years. Go figure.
Hope my comments have helped!
Personally I despise Orc and Pie style dungeons. I have to have a good idea as to why encounters are where they are and how they interact with the rest of thier environs.
My players, on the other hand, mostly do not care and don't really notice most of the detailing. However I have one player who catches on quite well.
As example, I was running a one-shot ruined castle delving. I built a story line over the ages of the wheres and whys, which included having a wooden keep burned down and a Rogue utilizing the destroyed keeps defenses..
The Keep had a teleport trap that took invaders to a holding cell, sans clothing, which had been located on the 2nd floor. The Rogue cultivated Archer bushes underneath where the cell used to exist.
It was great to see Puck's look when he pieced it together. The bit of work on the history made his game more enjoyable and my effort more rewarded.
Any, I strongly advocate avoiding the 'what the heck' moments.
Many people consider the Deserts of Desolation to be a great set of modules...except for this problem. They have a sealed maze with treasure laying out in the open as well was wandering bandits who have been stuck there for years. Go figure.
Hope my comments have helped!
For me, a dungeon needs at least one or two of the following things to work: A source of water, a source of food, a way out and waste disposal. A way out can cover for several of these, so I usually have a long tunnle leading to the surface somewhere that the PCs aren't likely to find the entrance/exit. Multi-level dungeons, on the other hand, take a bit more planning.
Steel_Wind
Legend
I agree that it depends on the DM and the group and the spirit of the campaign.
If you are running a highly "realistic" campaign, 1st edition Judge's Guild feel may not be what you are looking for.
By the same token,sometimes a silly dungeon crawl has its moments.
There is a balance to be struck between fantasy and realism: wherever that fulcrum is placed is up to you. Different strokes for different folks. The goal should ultimately be about "fun". That said, what is fun for one is distracting and absurd for another.
As always, you are the best judge of your players' tastes.
If you are running a highly "realistic" campaign, 1st edition Judge's Guild feel may not be what you are looking for.
By the same token,sometimes a silly dungeon crawl has its moments.
There is a balance to be struck between fantasy and realism: wherever that fulcrum is placed is up to you. Different strokes for different folks. The goal should ultimately be about "fun". That said, what is fun for one is distracting and absurd for another.
As always, you are the best judge of your players' tastes.
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