Dungeon vs. Polyhedron - Death Match

If you had to decid between buying Dungeon or Polyhedron?

  • Dungeon - Poly is a waste of time

    Votes: 106 67.1%
  • Polyhedron - Dungeon is for the weak

    Votes: 34 21.5%
  • Neither

    Votes: 18 11.4%

  • Poll closed .
When they were separate magazines, I let my subscriptions lapse. I started picking up Dungeon again, and considered letting is lapse...then they started packaging Dungeon with Poly. I liked the mix. I renewed, and have continued to do so since.

When I receive a new issue, I always check out Poly first. The Dungeon content, though, typically has more lasting value. I rarely run adventures straight out of it (never in 3E, come to think of it), but often find it useful to plunder for ideas and maps.
 

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Re: My take:

nikolai said:
The poll provides support for the notion that most people want Poly out.

Ha! Not even close, man, not even close. :)

It provides support for the notion that 94 out of 134 people who were willing to vote to throw out one or the other wanted to throw out Poly instead of Dungeon. It doesn't address people who are happy with it as is and might get rather annoyed if either one got thrown out.

However, I will say you have a promising career in Washington.

-The Gneech :cool:
 

*shrugs*

I've said it before and I'll say it again...

The major paradigm shift that needs to occur in the Paizo offices is the following:

Dungeon is not competing with magazines. Dungeon is competing with other published adventures/modules. This means Dungeon should be designed around the same general philosophy as modules, not magazines.

I often hear Paizo compare costs of Dungeon vs. Adventure modules (you get 112 pages for $7 with us, versus 32 pages for $10 with the other guys). But they don't seem to realize the implications of this argument... as a "module/adventure," the layout and format of Dungeon absolutely sucks (sorry for the choice of words).

Who are the primary consumers of adventure modules? DMs. I don't know about other DMs, but when I run a published adventure, I like to photocopy the pages (or just write on the module itself) and put copious notes of changes, tweaks, etc. into the margins. I use the margins to keep track of hit points in battle, wounded monsters when the party withdraws, etc. In other words, a well-crafted module has sufficient "white space" to allow the DM to tailor it to his own campaign (note that I'm not advocating a huge amount of white space, but there does need to be some, and a one-inch margin does a great job). Dungeon does not have the requisite white space to do this (instead favoring full-color, dark borders that turn dark gray to black when photocopied), and thus is poorly laid out for an adventure module. Furthermore, the glossy paper removes any chance I might have to make notes in pencil on the pages of the module itself.

So the choice of media - glossy paper - and the choice of layout - no margins - make Dungeon a BAD adventure module in terms of production values (this is no reflection on the quality of the writing).

Similarly, the maps, while gorgeous in full color, need to either be provided in black and white or to "transform" well when copied (most DMs want to make notes on the maps, too).

Proposed Solution:

Dungeon needs to drop the full-color glossy page interior format in favor of Black & White, non-glossy pages with white space in the margins.
Immediately, I hear, "but that knocks down potential advertising revenue!"

Yes, it does. But it also drops production costs significantly. I don't have access to the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if the drop in production cost more than offset the loss of potential advertising revenue (since most advertisers will be less-inclined to advertise in B&W and will pay less than they will for full-color advertising even if they do advertise).

Which leads me to a second point... Dungeon is a poorly designed "adventure module" because it has glorious full-color artwork inside and an abundance of advertising.

First of all, let's address the issue of full-color artwork in a module. While it looks nice, it is (a) expensive and (b) usually unnecessary. A small amount of strategically placed artwork is needed every once in a while to break up the monotony of a sea of text, but B&W art does just as much to break it up... and for a lot less money. Furthermore, the only true "need" for artwork in a module comes in the form "player handouts..." and most of the art currently in Dungeon isn't player handouts.

As the ads go, I don't know about you, but don't usually see ads in the middle of modules I buy in the store (I may see an ad for a company's upcoming product on the last page or two, but NOT in the middle of the adventure itself). Ads are a detriment to the gamer. However, eliminating ads entirely may hurt Dungeon's revenue streams too greatly.

I don't know Dungeon's present circulation, but I would not be surprised if it were at least 10,000... which is more "built-in" customers than you see for pretty much any product out there except for the Core Rulebooks. And since many of these are direct subscribers, there is one less "middle man markup" than you see on modules (where you must pay the FLGS owner, the distributor, and the producing company - I believe Paizo uses a distributor, but that still knocks out the FLGS from the equation on subscriptions). That, to me, means that Dungeon has a lot more going for it in terms of potential profitability than a "standard adventure module" - it has more customers than any module (meaning economies of scale can knock down the production price) and there are fewer middlemen taking a "cut" of the cover price (meaning a larger percentage of the cover price should wind up in Paizo's pocket)... and that's just on "sales," to say nothing of advertising revenue.

Why do I bring the preceding up? Because it tells me that if any "non-magazine" company can turn a profit producing adventure modules, Paizo should be able to turn a profit with ease. Further, Paizo *should* be able to be turn a profit without needing advertising revenue, and thus should be able sustain the "hit" in advertising dollars it would take should it go to B&W. They have a certain guaranteed customer base (the subscribers), they have more market penetration than any module adventure producer is going to see, and they have fewer "middlemen" taking bites out of their profit.

Thus, as I see it, there can be only two explanations for Paizo's claims that Dungeon isn't profitable:

1.) Paizo is spending too much on production. They are doing this because they are thinking too much like a "magazine" and not enough like an "adventure module producer" - and their decisions thus incur costs unneccessary to compete in their market niche (e.g., glossy full-color interior pages).

2.) Nobody can turn a profit in publishing adventures, period - not even a company with an advantage in pre-sales (subscriptions), market penetration, name recognition, scale (bringing production costs down), fewer middlemen, and lower shipping rates (bulk postage rates).

I find #2 a bit untenable... which leaves me with only conclusion #1.

I may be very wrong. This is just my perception. But Poly or no Poly, I think Dungeon is trying to conform to the wrong paradigm and without some significant wholesale changes in the way they think, they are doomed to failure because they can't get out of the "magazine" mindset - and because of that mindset, they make decisions that are unnecessarily expensive and not conducive to "adventure module publishing company."

This is a problem to a lesser degree with Dragon, as well, but that's for another thread.

--The Sigil
 

Well said Sigil. Dungeon magazine was far more useful to me as a DM prior to August 2000 when it was in black & white. The new glitzy look will full-color everything and glossy pages was a very poor decision on the part of the magazine.
 

Hey Erik,

It's a loooong wait, but I'm waiting for when you pull Poly out of Dungeon and resume giving it out as part of my RPGA membership. I wouldn't mind paying for the membership if the Poly was back where it belonged...

...or, you could put M&M stuff in both mags. Heh heh heh...

-Smokestack Jones
Maker of the Sampo!
 

Beautiful expose on Dungeon, The Sigil. I've seen this dissertation from you before, but I *never* tire of reading it. If you have to repeat it yet again, then do so!

I think I'll add one bit of my own to your quote, below:
The Sigil said:
But Poly or no Poly, I think Dungeon is trying to conform to the wrong paradigm and without some significant wholesale changes in the way they think, they are doomed to failure because they can't get out of the "magazine" mindset - and because of that mindset, they make decisions that are unnecessarily expensive and not conducive to "adventure module publishing company."
... and in the end is hurting the consumers who purchase Dungeon.
 

Baraendur said:

So there it is ladies and gentlemen - straight from the horse's mouth. Poly will be decreased but not excised. The issue is resolved. The horse is dead. Stop beating it before you are charged with corpse mutilation.
WHAT-EVER.

As soon as the last issue of Poly is rolled out, I'm not buying any more fresh Dung.

Then we'll see if the magazine can survive another 12 months until it is out of circulation or a change in format must be installed due to decreased sale.
 

arnwyn said:
Beautiful expose on Dungeon, The Sigil. I've seen this dissertation from you before, but I *never* tire of reading it. If you have to repeat it yet again, then do so!

I think I'll add one bit of my own to your quote, below:

... and in the end is hurting the consumers who purchase Dungeon.
I wouldn't call it an expose. I simply start from a few premises and go from there.

It's quite possible that my premises are flawed, and if so, my argument is too.

I doubt anyone will dispute that "going to B&W non-glossy" will drop production costs.

But any of the following could be flawed premises - I simply don't have enough information. They seem reasonable, but may simply be wrong:

* Whether or not that drop would offset the lost advertising revenue
* The cost benefit to Dungeon from not having one extra layer of middle man
* The market penetration of Dungeon is greater than that of most non-WotC publishers
* Dungeon is produced on a scale where "price breaks" due to quantities of scale occur to a greater degree than with smaller publishers
* (Toughest to determine) The price point and market size for quality modules is sufficient to sustain a business producing them. It seems obvious that there is some minimum "critical mass point" of buyers that must be reached - exactly what that point is tough to determine (I guess the exact "potential gross income point" is the price point times the market size for that price point, then that point must be compared with "gross cost of production of a module of Quality X"). The theoretical question then becomes whether or not Dugeon readership times subscription cost is at least at that critical mass. I believe that the "critical mass point" is below the "Dungeon readership" but this is almost impossible to prove empirically. Obviously, Paizo believes this too or they wouldn't keep printing Dungeon, though.

--The Sigil
 
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So the choice of media - glossy paper - and the choice of layout - no margins - make Dungeon a BAD adventure module in terms of production values (this is no reflection on the quality of the writing).
Try Post-It Notes instead. They're larger than margins, serve as a nice reminder of games gone by, and really personalise your back issues.
 

Ranger REG said:

WHAT-EVER.

As soon as the last issue of Poly is rolled out, I'm not buying any more fresh Dung.

Then we'll see if the magazine can survive another 12 months until it is out of circulation or a change in format must be installed due to decreased sale.

Dude, I'm on your side of the argument. Paizo has rejected the notion of removing Poly, so the argument has become moot. Its time for people to just decide whether to continue buying the magazine or not. Perrsonally, I will be.
 

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