Dungeon World

[Iron Sky]

I don't think what I've been doing has been antithetical to the rulebook's advice. Specific rulings (like not requiring rolls for the casting of rotes) may have given the characters more power than they would have had otherwise, but that wasn't clearly defined in the rules as far as my players or I could find.
The other major issue I've had - the soft vs. hard moves - isn't really clearly defined in the book either (again, from what I could tell). And even from the advice given in this thread and the linked advice PDF, it's more "as the GM you should just do what you think would enhance the game/make it more interesting."
I think most of us here on ENWorld (which is a pretty D&D/d20 leaning community) would say that you shouldn't assume a GM should just change the parameters of the game rules to up the challenge, i.e.: giving the monsters devastating attacks with no basis (or advice) in the rules, grant them the ability to take additional actions until the party is ready to run away from the fight, etc. If that's the case, why even have a game engine? Why even let the players roll dice?

Having run several DW campaigns, convention one shots, and online arcs in the decadish since it came out, plus having watched every game Adam Koebel (the lead designer) has run along all of his Office Hours YouTube videos, and also most of the games he has run online I feel fairly confident saying that if you run it exactly as written in the book, you won't get an optimal play experience from it.

It is a fiction-first game, which means the narrative leads into the mechanics instead of D&D which often goes the other direction, especially when it comes to combat.

D&D:
GM Okay, the orcs face you across crumbling bridge arcing over the chasm; half a dozen runts backed up by a lumbering war chief. Roll initiative... they go at 16:
Fighter I go at 21 so I think I'm first. I'm going to use my move action to got up next to this orc, then use my cleave to hit the other one too. Hit, 16 damage each.
GM Those two are dead. Who's up next?
Rogue I'm at 18 so I'm going to move up to flank the war chief, then attack with advantage and my backstab ability...

DW:
GM Okay, the orcs face you across crumbling bridge arcing over the chasm; half a dozen runts backed up by a lumbering war chief. What do you do?
Fighter I've got a big axe, so if I charge up at this group can I hit a couple at once with my swing?
GM Sure as long as you Defy Danger first to get there.
Fighter I'm sprinting in full-tilt so with +STR?
GM Sure.
Fighter Okay... got an 8.
GM All right, go ahead and roll Hack and Slash.
Fighter What about the 8?
GM It'll come after Hack and Slash.
Fighter Okay. I got another 8. Damage is 11.
GM Okay, both are super dead, but one sticks you with his crude spear first. You take 4+1 for being in a group is 5 damage first... and your axe lodges in the second one's chest solidly.
Fighter Crap.
GM While that was going on, Thief, what were you doing?
Thief I'm going to run around and try to get behind the war chief so I can backstab.
GM Hm... he's a huge, scarred brute and sees your move coming a mile away. You can do that but you'll have to Defy Danger twice - once to avoid getting smacked on the way in, the other to position yourself behind him. Then you can get your backstab in.
Thief What if I want to climb up that pillar, leap off, and drive my knife into his head to kill him in one shot?
GM Cool! Hm... a third Defy Danger to climb the pillar and a fourth to land the blow and you'll kill him instantly.

Etc.

Also, soft and hard moves are key to making the game work. General rules I follow when running games:
♦7-9 is usually a soft move, 6- is a hard.
♦Two soft moves equal a hard move - first is the warning, second manifests the warning and lands the hard move.
♦"Tough" monsters require at least one move to get close to (defaulting to Defy Danger) and usually a soft move against a PC will give the monster their position back so the player has to use a Defy Danger again to get at them.
♦If you want to wear them down in ways other than HP, try an occasional hard move of "the attack/spell/acid whatever blasts into you, what item just broke?" or "You come out of the swamp/lake/moat/mound of oozes missing something, what?"
♦Marking debilities sucks much more than HP loss as a player. My "tough" monsters tend to inflict them regularly as hard moves.

As for Rotes, someone else mentioned it upthread, but you have to roll for them.

I love DW for what it is even if I don't play it much anymore. The only game I could start a campaign of right now with zero warning or prep if five people showed up in my living room as I hit "Post."

 

[Ovinomancer]

My commitment as a GM is to run a the sort of game that I would enjoy as a player. Neither as a GM or as a player am I comfortable with rules by fiat. More importantly, I'm playing a game called "Dungeon World". If I really want to play a game that ignores the challenge aesthetic of play for the sake of story, I'm probably not going to choose a game where everyone plays a barbarian, fighter, rogue, bard, druid, etc. goes into a dungeon. What's the point of being a combat focused game without a meaningful tactical component, and where what happens in a fight is purely the whim of a GM?

In any event, all the advice that is being given to the OP amounts to, "Well, you should have been arbitrarily more nasty and pulled more arbitrary shenanigans on the PCs. It's your fault for not being unfair enough."

Yeah, this is absolutely wrong. A DM that does what you say is playing the game in bad faith, against all of the advice and rules in the game. This isn't how it works.

Look the simple version of DW is that the DM describes the fiction, then the players react. If the player's reaction sounds like a Move, it is a Move and dice are used. At this point, there's some threat or challenge the PC are trying to overcome. The dice say success, success at cost or complication, or failure. The Move will provide guidance on each. The DM's job now is to do what the game calls for -- if the game has called for a cost or complication, the you need to bring that, strongly. The DM only increases the danger when the players roll a Move and fail or incur a cost. That's when the hellhound bites your arm and sets you on fire, when the PC tries a Hack and Slash and fails (or succeeds with a cost with plenty of previous soft moves that now demand payoff). Rinse and repeat until the challenge or threat is passed (or, more likely, until the snowball of threats has diminished).

DW has strong play principles, both for the DM and the players. These constrain the play in a way that makes it not arbitrary in application, but free in fictional impacts. That means that the DM's authority to bring the bad is entirely dependent on the player's failures -- and the game is slanted to incur failures and costs. The players have a duty to engage, to play their PCs like stolen cars if you will, and see where the fiction takes them. Following these principles and the rules results in a fair and very challenging game. It's when you don't follow those that the game breaks. Kinda like how D&D breaks when a DM engages in Monty Haul.

 

[Retreater]

I don't know if you are an actual writer of fiction or non-fiction, but for the sake of argument I'm going to assume you are not. At least not any more than the majority of RPG fans and GM's out there. So...

Strangely enough, I majored in creative writing and have written a few novels and many short stories, as well as having a D&D module published on the non-fiction front. So the analogy definitely works for me.
For what you're describing I'm going to have to get a level of buy-in from my players who are mostly concerned with hanging out, casually gaming, and playing a game. Which is fine, but I don't know if the level of artistry and storytelling in a game like you're describing will fit. Certainly I'll get some crossed eyes when I say something like "it's going to be better for our story if I rip off your character's arm."
Our group is definitely entrenched in the D&D/PF milieu (even if it's OSR). We were looking for a game that we could play over voice chat while in different states without the need for grids or complex character sheets. We have been playing nearly weekly in this campaign since August, so it's been going a while. That seems pretty long term for a DW campaign.
My previous DW game was probably close to 5 years ago, and those players reached around 5th level. We had a lot of good memories, but I wouldn't say that either campaign has had real challenge.

 

[Nebulous]

Having run several DW campaigns, convention one shots, and online arcs in the decadish since it came out, plus having watched every game Adam Koebel (the lead designer) has run along all of his Office Hours YouTube videos, and also most of the games he has run online I feel fairly confident saying that if you run it exactly as written in the book, you won't get an optimal play experience from it.

It is a fiction-first game, which means the narrative leads into the mechanics instead of D&D which often goes the other direction, especially when it comes to combat.

D&D:
GM Okay, the orcs face you across crumbling bridge arcing over the chasm; half a dozen runts backed up by a lumbering war chief. Roll initiative... they go at 16:
Fighter I go at 21 so I think I'm first. I'm going to use my move action to got up next to this orc, then use my cleave to hit the other one too. Hit, 16 damage each.
GM Those two are dead. Who's up next?
Rogue I'm at 18 so I'm going to move up to flank the war chief, then attack with advantage and my backstab ability...

DW:
GM Okay, the orcs face you across crumbling bridge arcing over the chasm; half a dozen runts backed up by a lumbering war chief. What do you do?
Fighter I've got a big axe, so if I charge up at this group can I hit a couple at once with my swing?
GM Sure as long as you Defy Danger first to get there.
Fighter I'm sprinting in full-tilt so with +STR?
GM Sure.
Fighter Okay... got an 8.
GM All right, go ahead and roll Hack and Slash.
Fighter What about the 8?
GM It'll come after Hack and Slash.
Fighter Okay. I got another 8. Damage is 11.
GM Okay, both are super dead, but one sticks you with his crude spear first. You take 4+1 for being in a group is 5 damage first... and your axe lodges in the second one's chest solidly.
Fighter Crap.
GM While that was going on, Thief, what were you doing?
Thief I'm going to run around and try to get behind the war chief so I can backstab.
GM Hm... he's a huge, scarred brute and sees your move coming a mile away. You can do that but you'll have to Defy Danger twice - once to avoid getting smacked on the way in, the other to position yourself behind him. Then you can get your backstab in.
Thief What if I want to climb up that pillar, leap off, and drive my knife into his head to kill him in one shot?
GM Cool! Hm... a third Defy Danger to climb the pillar and a fourth to land the blow and you'll kill him instantly.

Etc.

Also, soft and hard moves are key to making the game work. General rules I follow when running games:
♦7-9 is usually a soft move, 6- is a hard.
♦Two soft moves equal a hard move - first is the warning, second manifests the warning and lands the hard move.
♦"Tough" monsters require at least one move to get close to (defaulting to Defy Danger) and usually a soft move against a PC will give the monster their position back so the player has to use a Defy Danger again to get at them.
♦If you want to wear them down in ways other than HP, try an occasional hard move of "the attack/spell/acid whatever blasts into you, what item just broke?" or "You come out of the swamp/lake/moat/mound of oozes missing something, what?"
♦Marking debilities sucks much more than HP loss as a player. My "tough" monsters tend to inflict them regularly as hard moves.

As for Rotes, someone else mentioned it upthread, but you have to roll for them.

I love DW for what it is even if I don't play it much anymore. The only game I could start a campaign of right now with zero warning or prep if five people showed up in my living room as I hit "Post."

This really makes me want to try DW again but it would be all but impossible to get players. Maybe - possibly - I could convince the Roll20 group to give it a shot.

 

[doghead]

I think that any advice I could add has already been said. Maybe this will help instead:

The Fey, the Far, and the Ugly Space In Between

It was a DW game played here on the boards. The characters were pretty high level, and from what I recall, it was a pretty wild ride.

thotd

 

[Manbearcat]

Just saw this thread. It’s filled with great advice that I can only reiterate.

Dog head just linked the PBP I ran on here with a few I game with IRL as a tutorial for folks. OP, if you’d like, read that and ask specific questions about moments of play and I can give you the skinny on the play architecture and mental headspace of the particular moment of play.

Or just watch games run online by proficient participants.

Sum total:

- Cast a Spell always is a move which requires resolution.

- There should only be one “Fighter”.

- Your soft moves need to be much more dynamic in both their fictional inputs/setups (you need to stop thinking from such a tightly restricted, physics causal chain perspective) and in what they threaten/portend. Hard choices mean “hard”...not trivial, not reflexively intuitive.

- Your hard moves/follow-throughs clearly need to be more punishing and much more diverse as well.

And finally, this game is not about GM Force or “unprincipled/arbitrary fiat.” Not even close as all of the machinery of a game run true actively pushes back against both of those things.

 

[Retreater]

- There should only be one “Fighter”.

I've seen this advice brought up several times. I have a Fighter and a Barbarian. So are you saying I shouldn't have two warrior classes, or two characters who are specifically fighters?

 

[Manbearcat]

I've seen this advice brought up several times. I have a Fighter and a Barbarian. So are you saying I shouldn't have two warrior classes, or two characters who are specifically fighters?

Barbarian and Fighter are fine.

What you should be thinking about, with both of them, is what makes them different from the other. Put stress on those differences so that play outcomes emerge around them such that you can clearly see that "the" Barbarian and Fighter are not the same archetype.

For instance, for the Barbarian:

- Make their "Wild Eyes" (if that is what they chose) a thing that comes up in social conflict (be it with a primal spirit, the head of the town militia, a priest of a heavily orthodox religion, or a great bear of the forest that needs brought to heel) a component to frame a scene around (an opening soft move) or use it in a complicating fashion on a 7-9 move.

- Turn their eschewing of the conventions of the civilized world back on them in a way that presents a hard choice (maybe they're freezing to death and some tech, a bundle of Tendertwigs, would start a fire instantly to stave off the creeping cold in an inhospitable situation) when an Undertake a Perilous Journey move goes wrong.

- Make a situation where being a bull in a china shop (the Forceful and Messy tags inherent to them) complicate a combat in an interesting and complicating way for them. You can alter Hack & Slash and the like to make it a "World Move" based on environment such that some environmental complication arises when they're fighting there (just make it player-facing).

Perhaps they're fightning on the 2nd floor of a burning, timber-framed structure. A 10+ means they deal their damage and avoid calamaty/counter. But a 7-9 presents the choice (player chooses 1 and the GM chooses the complication inherent within 1 of the remaining):

• Your mighty blow doesn't cause the floor joists to fail and cave in.
• Your enemy isn't propelled through a wall onto the gathering crowd.
• Your heedless fury doesn't send you sprawling into the inferno.

ETC ETC

Same goes the Fighter. Crystalize their differences through differentiated fictional framing, choices, and consequences.

 

[Nebulous]

What is wrong with having two Fighters necessarily? Or two of any class?

 

[Manbearcat]

What is wrong with having two Fighters necessarily? Or two of any class?

The idea in Dungeon World of class is more kindred to genre archetype than it is to career.

Put another way, consider the following:

You're playing a game that is, in part or in whole, about genre archetypes emerging directly as a product of play. The easiest one would be superheros.

Imagine a game where one player is playing Thor or Captain America while another player is playing The Hulk. That can certainly work as, while they're all physical martial combatants, their thematic portfolio has significant divergence which should reveal itself in play through situation framing, decision-points, and outcomes.

Now imagine that first player is playing The Thing.

Doable...but we're starting to have some archetype overlap creep that isn't great.

Now imagine a game where one player is Red Hulk and the other is Green Hulk. No bueno.